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Sara Lebow (00:00):

This episode is made possible by Quad. In marketing, everything must work seamlessly or efficiency, speed, and ROI all suffer. That's why Quad is obsessed with making sure your marketing machine runs smoothly, with less friction and smarter integration. Better marketing is built on Quad. See how better gets done at www.quad.com/buildbetter. Hello, listeners. Today is Wednesday, July 9th. Welcome to Reimagining Retail, an EMARKETER podcast made possible by Quad. This is the show where we talk about how retail collides with every part of our lives. I'm your host, Sara Lebow. Today's episode topic is Balancing Performance and Brand Marketing at a CPG Company. Before we get into that, let's meet today's guests. Joining me for today's episode, we have two podcast regulars and a special guest. First up, it's one of our analysts, Sky Canaves. Hey Sky.

Sky Canaves (00:59):

Hey Sara. So glad to be joining you today.

Sara Lebow (01:01):

Yeah, great to have you in person. Also with us, one of our analysts, Zak Stambor. Hey, Zak.

Zak Stambor (01:06):

Hey, Sara. Happy to be here.

Sara Lebow (01:08):

Happy to have you. And also with us, special guest, it's Vice President of Performance Marketing and e-commerce at Men's Care brand, Every Man Jack, Nick Hasselberg. Hey Nick.

Nick Hasselberg (01:19):

Hey Sara. Thanks for having me.

Sara Lebow (01:20):

Yeah, welcome to the podcast. Okay. We already know Beauty and Personal Care is an industry full of promise right now. Health and personal care will be one of Amazon's fastest growing categories between 2025 and 2027, according to our own EMARKETER data. And Men's Care is one of the things propelling the industry forward. So Nick, can you start us off by just giving us a rundown of what Every Man Jack is as a brand?

Nick Hasselberg (01:46):

Yeah, absolutely. Every Man Jack was started 17 years ago. We're one of the original clean men's personal care brands. We create a bunch of different products. Hair care, body wash, bar soap. We're actually the country's largest beard care brand. All of our products have naturally derived ingredients, they're outdoor inspired scents like sandalwood and cedarwood, and sea salt, and we really try and offer these products at an affordable price point. So yeah, we're distributed widely. We're within Mass, Walmart, and Target, we're in grocery, we're in Club and Drug, and we also have a digital presence through DTC and Amazon.

Sara Lebow (02:31):

Gotcha. So I have a question about marketing specifically since that's your role. I'm sure you've been asked this at dozens of conferences. I think I've seen you asked this at a conference before. But between performance and brand marketing, what is your priority?

Nick Hasselberg (02:45):

Yeah, great question. It really depends on the time of the year that you're asking me. If you are asking me at the beginning of the year, it's probably what we refer to as brand marketing. If you're asking me in the back half of the year, it's probably a little bit more performance marketing. And the reason for that, we have a relatively more seasonal business, but really has to do with our objectives. And I'll take this year as an example, we had a very hard charge this year to drive retail velocities with much larger reach based marketing budget than we've had before. And I think we did a great job just looking at all the different analytics that we have access to in terms of driving quality awareness. It was the single largest jump we've had in awareness as evidenced through our brand trackers. So you would refer to that probably as more of a brand marketing outcome.

(03:41):

And we're looking at this information at this point in the year and realizing we've got an influx of new prospects that we need to now sort of mine and convert into higher quality consumers, that are more deeply considering the brand and that obviously are purchasing. So the tactics then shift to wanting to be able to influence those aware consumers into actual customers of the brand, and doing that through lower funnel techniques. It might be rewards through partners like Ibotta or Neptune, or it could just be focusing more on search. So that's really how I'm looking at it, is it just depends on the time of the year.

Sara Lebow (04:27):

Yeah, I've actually never heard anyone lay it out for me exactly like that, that it's brand marketing at the front of the year, performance at the back of the year. Is the idea that you familiarize people with the brand at the start of the year so that when holiday season comes around, they're ready to buy?

Nick Hasselberg (04:42):

Yeah, it's a great question. Holiday is an important period for this brand, and what we've noticed in the past, we used to have reach marketing investment sort of kickstart around March, which is where we felt consumers have that holiday slump, and they need a few more months or weeks in order to pick up traction and regain normal shopping patterns.

(05:05):

And we realized last year that our competitors were not standing pat, and really after holiday focusing intensely on generating awareness and demand. So it just became a reality of the category, that we didn't have the luxury of waiting a couple of months. We really needed to make sure that all guns were blazing at the beginning of the year. So it does fit nicely into the sort of calendar view of, first half is reach and second half is performance. That's not really how we tend to draw it up, it's just a reality that the category is not waiting for us, so we need to take part in that as well. And then with all of that new awareness, it just becomes a great opportunity for us to focus our investments a little bit more on extracting value from aware consumers.

Sara Lebow (05:55):

Yeah, Sky and Zak, is this consistent with you've seen from other CPG or personal care brands?

Sky Canaves (06:01):

I think nowadays with the holiday calendars, especially being pulled forward more, it becomes more important to get brand awareness earlier into the year. We're seeing now with Prime Day and the other July sales from major retailers coming up, that for some consumers it is a time to start thinking about holiday shopping. Especially this year with concern over the impacts of tariffs and whether things are going to become more expensive later in the year. A significant share of consumers do start their shopping earlier in the year, and these sales events also create opportunities to make consumers aware of brands and start to target them or reach them in ways that can then pay off later in the year with the later sales events.

Sara Lebow (06:44):

Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like soap, personal care is interesting because you need it year round, but you are likely to discover it or maybe be more willing to add a little bit more to your cart around the holiday or around a sales event.

Sky Canaves (06:58):

And if it's a special product, you might be looking at it as an item for gift giving or an affordable splurge. Especially now we're seeing consumers will be pulling back more on bigger ticket and discretionary purchases, but they're still going to look for ways to splurge when they can, and to give the right gifts when the season comes.

Sara Lebow (07:18):

Yeah, I mean we know that consumers are spending more on essentials, so that's a good question. It's like if we see this product, like men's personal care, as an essential or not. Where does that land for you, Nick?

Nick Hasselberg (07:34):

Oh, it's absolutely essential. And it's-

Sara Lebow (07:37):

Do consumers see it that way?

Nick Hasselberg (07:38):

Yeah, they see it as essential. And you're seeing what's happening in men's personal care is the same thing that's happened within FMCG in terms of this emergence of clean, whether it is medicine or food or some other application within consumables, but this is where the puck is going. Men are increasingly interested in Better for You offerings, and there's just a bunch of interesting dynamics that are propelling the men's category forward. And each of one of them interacts with a broader trend. You have COVID and probably social media are two huge trends that influence men becoming more involved within their own grooming routine. Social media providing that mirror back to consumers, you want to care a little bit more about how you look.

(08:29):

COVID forcing us to think more about our own health and the decisions that we make every day. And probably another trend that's influenced that is just the rise of e-commerce and digital, and the ability to make decisions for myself, a disruption of the normal shopping pattern that probably our parents had where one person, likely a mom, is going to go to Target at Walmart and pick out something for men. There's not a lot of male consumer choice within that decision making. And now male consumers, increasingly younger but also old as well, can go onto Amazon, go onto D2C sites and really gain that education for themselves. So all of these trends are dovetailing and propelling the men's category. And it's the reason why it's outpacing personal care at large.

Sara Lebow (09:17):

Yeah. We know for something that Zak's team wrote recently that nearly seven in 10 Gen Z men ages 18 to 27 use facial skin care. That's according to a Mintel survey from last year. And not just drugstore products. 42% buy premium moisturizers over mass market brands. So Zak, I'll go to you first with this one. How is the Men's Care and Beauty playbook the same or different from the Women's Personal Care one?

Zak Stambor (09:47):

It's a good question. So I think on the one hand it's the same because it's all about wellness, it's all about ingredient transparency and cleanliness. But then on the other hand, men are just very different than women, both in terms of needs and wants.

Sara Lebow (10:02):

I like your '90s stand up routine here.

Zak Stambor (10:07):

Well, to start, the category is newer, and so there's ample white space. There's a lot of education that needs to happen. There's the men's desire for just simplicity, both in the routine of what it is that the product offers or does, but also just in the message that the brand is trying to get across. So I think it's both the same and different to state the obvious.

Sara Lebow (10:40):

Yeah, I mean there's a real opportunity, especially right now. According to the Harris Poll and the Guardian, women are more likely to believe the economy and inflation are worsening compared to men. That means that men may be more willing to buy more premium products than women, whether or not that reflects the reality of the economy, which is an opportunity in that category.

Nick Hasselberg (11:03):

Yeah, I think about this a lot. And I think if you think about beauty category versus men's personal care, what Zak is saying is true. Men's personal care, as we know it today is a bit newer. But these shoppers are very different. Beauty shoppers are so much further along the adoption curve. And they're-

Sara Lebow (11:27):

They know what they're looking for, they're familiar with the names and products.

Nick Hasselberg (11:29):

They know what they're looking for. They know what those ingredients are on the back of the bottle. They've got experience, they've got intelligence around that. Men still need to be educated. And really for men, it tends to be a bit more outcome focused. I can tell you that it has aloe vera, I can tell you that it's got jojoba beads. But because there's a lack of education that can tend to fall very flat. So our job in marketing for Every Man Jack is to make sure we're connecting to the outcome always and striving for more simplicity. I think the other big difference I see is that beauty shoppers tend to be more tribal. More tribal and more viral reaction to things that are happening in the influencer space than I've seen exhibited by men in this space. And it doesn't mean that it influencers are not a marketing vehicle for men. They are. It just means that maybe looking at it from an attribution perspective, we tend to see first click attribution on influencer type media is not as high performing as what you would see in the beauty space.

Sky Canaves (12:45):

And I think there are a lot of differences in the social and cultural conversation around beauty and men's personal care, where there's so much content on women's beauty, we have a long history going back from magazines and all of the education that I learned about beauty from magazines, print magazines back in those days. Nowadays women learn from TikTok and YouTube and Instagram, and there's so much content where beauty is really talked about for its own sake. It's a rich trove of content for itself. And I think for men's personal care and grooming, there's more need for education, but in the functional sense, in the outcome based sense, as you mentioned, where maybe it's tied to specific needs as opposed to just for fun and entertainment.

Sara Lebow (13:31):

I'm actually curious about the crossover here. Obviously we're talking about a pretty heteronormative divide of men's and women's products here. We know that a lot of men, especially men who are interested in skin care, buy women's products. We know that a lot of women have historically bought men's products, like Axe and Old Spice, we've seen women buy these products as far back as when I started using beauty products and personal care products. Do you see that crossover, Nick? Do you have women consumers?

Nick Hasselberg (14:02):

We do. It's not a strategic focus, but we know from multiple sources that women buy our products, and they become the end user, just because they like the scent, they like the application. And yeah, you do see a lot of crossover. For instance, men's focus skin care is a very small category. No one has really cracked it. And skin care is huge for men, but it's more unisex offerings or genderless offerings like CeraVe and Cetaphil. And I think it's because lifestyle type brands such as ours, it's a big challenge sometimes to cross into different categories. One of our biggest equities is scent. Scent does not matter within the realm of skin care. So yeah, you definitely see consumers not really stay within these heteronormative lanes, and experimenting with different products.

Sara Lebow (15:08):

Yeah, that has to be so complicated for men's care too, because I think that if you are a brand focused on women and men are using it, then that's just an expansion. But I think that a lot of men may already be hesitant to embrace personal care. And if they see that brand as overly feminine, then it may also be difficult. So definitely a line to walk.

Nick Hasselberg (15:31):

Yes, and from survey data, we know that men are interested in products specifically designed for men. However, that has an asterisk when it comes to things like body washing deodorant, men are searching for products designed for men. When it comes to things like skin care, probably not as much.

Sara Lebow (15:49):

That's interesting. You talked about scent being an equity for you. I want to talk about what tactics Every Man Jack uses to stand out in what is becoming a crowded industry. What beyond scent are your standout marketing tactics or brand features?

Nick Hasselberg (16:07):

Yeah, it's a great question. When we started this brand 17 years ago, we were sort of the first cleans men's personal care brand. There wasn't a legacy player that was focused on naturally [inaudible 00:16:22] ingredients. And the sense tended to be things that were a bit more obvious and really not focused on where things are today. There's been massive scent proliferation within the category. Some that seem a bit more functional, some that are just pure fantasy. Like, does any-

Sara Lebow (16:45):

Fantasy, meaning it's not Sandalwood, it's like beach dreams.

Nick Hasselberg (16:49):

It's like swagger.

Sara Lebow (16:51):

Yeah, sure, of course.

Nick Hasselberg (16:51):

It's like, does anyone really know what that smells like? It's pure fantasy, but it's kind of like what Yankee Candle has been doing for a long time, right?

Sara Lebow (16:59):

Of course.

Nick Hasselberg (16:59):

There's just a lot of different types of scents that are available. So I think the focus for us is really, we've identified that we have an opportunity to drive greater distinction within our category by focusing on some more of those emotional levers, as opposed to purely functional.

Sara Lebow (17:19):

Yeah.

Nick Hasselberg (17:20):

And we've got a great innovation pipeline with new products, but what we're really excited about is brand differentiation and really grabbing hold of this concept of adventure. And it was a nugget that came to us from our brand tracker and other sort of insights work, that we are seen by consumers as relatively more adventurous, and that our consumers see themselves as more adventurous. So we wanted to be able to shift this brand from one that was more outdoorsy or outdoor inspired, to one that was a bit more active. And this is something that we're drawing up the plans for the next year. So that's one of the ways in which we're thinking about setting ourselves apart.

Sara Lebow (18:06):

And as you're looking at marketing in general, I want to jump back to this brand versus performance focus, to something that we didn't talk about there, which is that I know as you're focusing on brand marketing, you need to demonstrate return on investment to your finance teams. We all do. What key performance indicators are you looking at, to prove value of marketing that isn't immediately tied to a purchase, that doesn't have that last click data attached to it?

Nick Hasselberg (18:34):

Yeah. I mean there's different types of buckets. Like engagement type metrics are really important for providing the confidence that they are positive signs that are leading indicators that will ultimately convert into purchase. And one of those is share a voice and earn media value. Those are two metrics that we track. We worked with Barstool Sports for a March Madness takeover earlier this year, and it drove crazy gains in share a voice amongst the competitive set. And that was something that we really celebrated internally because we were dominating a narrative within our space.

Sara Lebow (19:12):

Is that considered creator or influencer marketing, or is it something different since it's a full business?

Nick Hasselberg (19:20):

Is Barstool considered influencer created marketing?

Sara Lebow (19:22):

Yeah. Do you guys consider that the creator marketing essentially?

Nick Hasselberg (19:25):

I think it is. Functionally you're dealing with a bunch of individuals that produce content, so we really look at it as an influencer type relationship, but they have other capabilities that kind of as more of an, and. It's like a hybrid type media channel in that I can run display banners throughout Barstool's ecosystem. I can't really do that with an influencer. But yeah, we do tend to view it as an influencer though.

Sara Lebow (19:54):

Zak, you're a big March Madness guy. Are these crossing your ecosystem? You may be less of a big Barstool guy.

Zak Stambor (20:01):

I am not a Barstool guy. But yeah, I think it's a great space to play in because that's the audience. It's younger consumers who are hyper attuned to these sorts of moments, and so it just makes perfect sense. And I imagine there's a lot of other opportunities similar to that, that you can play in.

Nick Hasselberg (20:23):

Yeah, we've really gravitated towards this idea of leveraging creators for next year, and particularly within sports. It's something we know from numerator that our consumer who is very much a millennial man usually into sports. So how can we take advantage of that insight and make sure we show up at the right time? The other thing about sports is it's very expensive, so it's needing to balance being where that consumer is and what they're interested in, and not paying incredible premiums and trying to duke it out with Geico and Allstate all the time.

Sara Lebow (21:08):

Okay, maybe a weird question here, but when I hear people say sports are expensive, often I say, well, the up and coming area there is women's sports. Is that an area that you're exploring because it has a lot of male viewers, or is it not an area that you're tapping into just yet?

Nick Hasselberg (21:24):

We've definitely taken notice of it, and I think there are opportunities for us to test into it with our media plans, but it's not, let's say, a strategic pillar of the media plan. But it's really awesome to see, and definitely male consumers are interested, have a growing interest within women's sports as well. So I think you just gave me an idea for where to double down next year.

Sara Lebow (21:54):

Well, yeah, I think that, well, it is maybe a little bit odd to market a men's care product in women's sports. Obviously we see women's products marketed in men's sports all the time. And I think that a lot of brands overlook just how many men watch women's sports. I mean, men tend to watch sports, and women's sports are becoming more and more accessible, so men are watching women's sports.

Nick Hasselberg (22:18):

Yeah, we're really excited about... we're going to be investing in some very recognizable talent next year. Because...

Sara Lebow (22:26):

I'm excited to learn those names.

Nick Hasselberg (22:27):

... [inaudible 00:22:28] the sports world. So yeah, we're just really excited to tell some different types of stories.

Sara Lebow (22:34):

Cool.

Nick Hasselberg (22:34):

And that's what we're really trying to execute well next year, is you think about sports marketing and your classic endorsement, it doesn't seem very special. So how can you become part of the conversation and work with that talent and tell stories that are disruptive and make a consumer think differently about you?

Sara Lebow (22:59):

Yeah. The last thing I want to touch on in this conversation is just our bread and butter retail at large. What is the role of marketplaces in Every Man Jack's e-commerce strategy? How do you look at your retail actual selling mix?

Nick Hasselberg (23:15):

Yeah, marketplaces are vital to this brand's growth. First and foremost, they provide the most consistency in terms of return within marketing, which is essential to planning. And when different things happen throughout the year, when your plans go awry, it's nice to have that consistency offered by the marketplaces. The second thing is just giving us an ability to test and learn, certainly with Amazon. And we're doing that now, we've got a new deodorant that we've launched and we put it within Amazon, and it's gaining incredible traction, and we're able to figure out how are consumers responding to the creative, how are they responding to these reviews, what types of consumers are transacting and how are those consumers different from someone who might purchase my base deodorant.

(24:09):

And then we can take all these insights and package them and provide proof of concept to other customers in wholesale that would be interested in the offering. The other thing I'd say is just retail media networks as well have become obviously very important to the marketing mix, and having access to that one P data and being able to connect the dots, it's a relatively newer technology. It's definitely been something that we've been investing in.

Sky Canaves (24:37):

That's really interesting to hear because we know that marketplaces are taking a greater share of commerce in the US, they keep growing. But typically a lot of brands, especially ones with a more direct to consumer angle, the CPG brands, they tend to focus on presenting just their hero products or their top products on a marketplace, or tried and tested products, the ones that consumers are most likely to be looking for, and saving their broader assortment for their own channels or for other channels. So to take the marketplace and use it as a testing ground and be able to glean more data from that and insights into the consumer behavior around it is a really interesting strategy.

Sara Lebow (25:18):

Yeah, it's always noteworthy to me to hear about retail media as an audience expansion strategy. I was looking at some Deloitte data earlier today that was talking about the importance of expanding your audience, because right now brands can't necessarily raise their prices, and I would imagine that's particularly true for a CPG or D2C brand. So you need to grab that greater share of market with more consumers. And I think that's a place where retail media can help you expand. And I also think that personal care a lot of times is seen as a largely in-store purchase. That's true. 47% of people buy only in store, but 37% of people buy personal care and beauty products both in store and online according to ThinkNow research. So it's definitely a place where you can reach those consumers.

Nick Hasselberg (26:05):

Yeah, and there's also a very high level of interaction between marketing tactics that are meant to affect a marketplace, an online marketplace versus in-store behavior. So it's just, I'll give you an example. One of our greatest sources of awareness amongst all consumers is seeing us on Amazon or seeing us at Walmart.com. And people don't tend to think about that. It's like, "No, no, no, you must create awareness through a top of funnel ad campaign." It's not always true.

Sara Lebow (26:41):

And I think that brings us full circle to our performance marketing, brand marketing question. Because even when you're investing in performance marketing in the form of search ads on retail media networks, you're still getting that brand marketing out of it by creating that awareness on Amazon and on Walmart.

Nick Hasselberg (26:58):

Exactly. It was several years back, just noticing the difference, I wanted to take a look at customers that we had acquired by channel, and understanding where they migrated. And it was fascinating because you saw that a customer who first discovered us and purchased us within Mass stays in Mass, and they don't migrate out of it. But consumers that we first acquire through D2C or through Amazon, many will eventually migrate to Mass. So it just really opened my eyes to Amazon is not something that... the self-contained platform in which consumers will always be there. It's actually an awareness vehicle and increasingly so with all the top of funnel capabilities that it now offers marketers like us.

Sara Lebow (27:45):

Okay, well, that is all we have time for today. Nick, thank you so much for joining us on this episode today.

Nick Hasselberg (27:50):

Thank you for having me. It was great conversation.

Sara Lebow (27:53):

Yeah, thank you for being here, Zak.

Zak Stambor (27:57):

Yeah, it was great.

Sara Lebow (27:57):

And thank you as always, Sky.

Sky Canaves (27:58):

Thanks again, Sara.

Sara Lebow (28:00):

Thank you To our listeners and to our team that edits the podcast, delivering episodes with great personal care. Please leave a comment or review and remember to subscribe to the Behind the Numbers podcast. We'll be back Wednesday with another episode of Reimagining Retail. And on Friday, join Marcus for another episode of Behind the Numbers, an EMARKETER podcast made possible by Quad.