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Marcus Johnson (00:00):

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(00:26):

Hey gang. It's Monday, May 19th. Minda, Jasmine and listeners, welcome to Behind the Numbers, an EMARKETER video podcast made possible by GIPHY. I'm Marcus, and today we'll be discussing TikTok, LinkedIn, Pinterest, Reddit, maybe Snapchat, we'll see. Joining me for that conversation we have two people. Let's meet them. We start with our senior analyst with a residence in New York. It's Minda Smiley.

Minda Smiley (00:46):

Hi, how are you?

Marcus Johnson (00:47):

Hello. Good, thank you. How are you?

Minda Smiley (00:49):

I'm doing well.

Marcus Johnson (00:50):

She's only asking because when I asked the group, Stuart who runs the team and Lance in production, and then these two, no one said anything. And then Stuart piped up because he's a kind person and he responds to questions, unlike some people.

Jasmine Enberg (01:09):

Marcus, we said we're sorry.

Marcus Johnson (01:11):

How you doing Jasmine?

Minda Smiley (01:11):

We apologize.

Marcus Johnson (01:12):

Not good enough. VP and principal analyst, who also didn't say hi to me, with living quarters in California. Jasmine Enberg.

Jasmine Enberg (01:20):

Hi Marcus. And hello [inaudible 00:01:22]

Marcus Johnson (01:21):

Hello. I'm good, thanks for asking.

(01:25):

Today's fact. Finland, of course. This is the last one, Finland. All right? There are no more. Finland hosts some of the weirdest world championships in the world. So we unfortunately already talked about Hobby Horsing last week. It's crazy. You have to go on YouTube or wherever, Vimeo, where ever you want to go. TikTok, perhaps? Any platform and look this up. You didn't explain Jasmine how insane... It's people literally with sticks and a horse's head just running around.

Jasmine Enberg (02:04):

I tried. It's very difficult to put into words.

Marcus Johnson (02:06):

You have to see it. It's a real... They have a website. It's official. Anyway, they also in Finland have the World Berry Picking Championships.

Jasmine Enberg (02:17):

Mm-hmm.

Marcus Johnson (02:18):

You knew about this? Good God. Swamp soccer, is just soccer in the mud.

Jasmine Enberg (02:24):

That I did not know about. Okay.

Marcus Johnson (02:24):

Yeah. Which actually sounds pretty fun. And then World Mobile Phone Throwing Championships.

Jasmine Enberg (02:31):

Mm-hmm. Yes. That's a classic.

Marcus Johnson (02:33):

Classic?

Minda Smiley (02:34):

What is that?

Jasmine Enberg (02:35):

Marcus-

Marcus Johnson (02:36):

Exactly what it says on the tin.

Jasmine Enberg (02:39):

What I said last time. We need things to do. Finland is very boring apparently.

Marcus Johnson (02:43):

Apparently. I don't know whether I'm impressed that people have these kinds of imaginations, or disappointed that someone's let this get this far.

Jasmine Enberg (02:51):

We're also quite competitive, and a very proud people. And I think all of that kind of just creates this environment of everything turning into a competition.

Marcus Johnson (03:00):

Yeah, yeah. [inaudible 00:03:02]

Minda Smiley (03:02):

Perfect storm.

Marcus Johnson (03:03):

Foraging for berries. But don't America, before you're like, "Ha ha ha." No, okay? You've got some crazy stuff too. The National Avocado Launching Championships in Nebraska. Wasteful. Also, in this economy? These prices? It's maddening watching this. There are like three people... I saw a video online, there's like three people in the stands. And I'll be frank, that's three too many. Okay?

Jasmine Enberg (03:31):

America also has a lot of different food contests, like hot dog eating.

Marcus Johnson (03:36):

Oh, that's true. Yeah.

Minda Smiley (03:38):

Yeah. Pretty gross.

Jasmine Enberg (03:40):

Yeah.

Marcus Johnson (03:40):

Do better. Anyway, today's real topic. What the other social players not called Meta are up to. All right, we'll go in order of their slice of the digital ad market, talking about some of the other social players. We talked about meta, Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, all that earlier. Maybe last week? And we wanted to give some attention to the other people who also play in the social space. And there's no real reason as to what order we should go in, so I thought we'll go in order of size, of how much of the digital ad pie do they have. And TikTok is the biggest of the ones we're going to be discussing today. It's the fourth-biggest overall in terms of US digital ad spend, behind obviously Google, Meta and Amazon, with 4.3%. And Sapna Maheshwari of the New York Times was writing about TikTok saying, "Facing a US ban, TikTok tells advertisers we're here and confident." Explaining that, "The company's execs trying to reassure potential advertisers about the app's future in the US, without directly addressing a looming ban under a federal law." Jasmine, what's the most likely outcome at this point?

Jasmine Enberg (04:53):

I think if there's no deal or solution by June 19th, which is the new deadline for TikTok to find a buyer, I imagine that Trump will just punt the deadline again.

Marcus Johnson (05:05):

Mm-hmm.

Jasmine Enberg (05:05):

What's interesting this time though too is that deadline actually coincides with Cannes Lions, where TikTok historically has had a really big presence. So I'm going to be there along with a few other analysts, and I'm going to be very curious to see what kind of tone they strike there, and if it's similar to what we heard at NewFronts like you just mentioned. But ultimately, I think status quo. They seem very confident that they're going to escape this ban. And we're also really not seeing users, advertisers, or creators behave any differently. And you and I, and Marissa, talked about this quite extensively on a podcast a few weeks ago.

Marcus Johnson (05:44):

Yeah, yeah. So go and check that out for much more detail on this. But I mean, Minda, it seems like as Jasmine was saying, president Trump saying, hinting at, whatever word you want to use. "If we don't get it done by June, I'll push it." It seems like he would just keep pushing it. And so then the question, if it's not going to come to the point where, "Oh, we've gone past the deadline." Then the question becomes, "All right, it's going to be sold. So who's going to be sold to, and what does that look like?" What do you make of that piece of this?

Minda Smiley (06:18):

Yeah. I think it's really unclear still around who it's going to be sold to. I mean Jasmine, jump in if you've heard anything recently, but I know last time when we were coming up on the deadline, Amazon's name was being thrown into the ring about a potential buyer. We're kind of seeing these little groups come to... Well, they're not little. But groups of investors coming together saying that they're interested in buying. But I think it still remains pretty unclear, especially as we see Trump's administration kick the can down the road. It does remain somewhat unclear who's going to be the ultimate buyer in all of this. And I think, at least from the advertiser side, as Jasmine said, we are seeing brands and users mostly stick with the platform still. I do think there's a small subset of advertisers that are kind of holding back a little bit still until there is a little more clarity around the situation. So TikTok is being affected to that extent. But again, I would say it's a pretty small subset.

Jasmine Enberg (07:12):

Yeah. And it's been pretty slow on the news front when you think about TikTok. I think everyone's focused on the other big T, which are tariffs. And so I think there's not being as much information about it, which is why I ultimately just think we're going to be in a similar situation come June 19th.

Marcus Johnson (07:30):

Mm-hmm. But whoever buys them, whoever it is, it going to be the same experience? Can they do with TikTok, with the brand, with the platform, what ByteDance has already done? Is it going to be the similar experience? I mean there was a lot of different types, I mean from everyone from Amazon to so Microsoft to Walmart at one point, I mean there's a whole host, a plethora of people and companies who say they want to take this over. Will it just continue being the same experience? Or can you see these different companies maybe taking it in different directions, and maybe the experience gets better, maybe it becomes even more popular? But isn't there a world where it kind of starts to degrade the experience to a certain extent?

Jasmine Enberg (08:11):

Well, that's the big question, right? I think the experience will depend upon who buys it and what that deal looks like. I mean one of the deals that was on the table, reportedly, was potentially licensing the algorithm from China, because that has been one of the biggest factors that people have been considering about how this deal will form. And the question has been from day one, is TikTok TikTok without the algorithm? And then of course, to your other point, is it an Amazon or a Walmart who buys it? Is it going to become even more shopping oriented? Will they integrate some of that TikTok-like technology and user experience into their own channels as well? Or is it going to be, I think Alexis Ohanian was thrown in at one point as a potential buyer, what is he going to do with it? How would he transform it? So there are so many different questions, and we really won't have answers to them until we know what a deal looks like.

Marcus Johnson (09:10):

Yeah. But that's TikTok, let's move on to LinkedIn, another social platform. They are seventh overall in our list of US digital ad spend. They get the seventh-biggest slice, 1.4% in the US, which is $5 billion. So we've gotten down to the very low single digit percentages, but there's billions of dollars being made here. The professional social network, which is a touch older than Facebook. It used to be simply a contact network, but is increasingly becoming a content channel. There's an article from The Economist was noting this, they were saying, "Comments are up 37% year over year. Video uploads are up by nearly as much. Now this presents LinkedIn with an opportunity in advertising, but at a risk to its professional identity." Minda, do you agree?

Minda Smiley (10:06):

I don't know if I would necessarily use the word risk. I mean think for quite... I mean we wrote about this around this time last year actually, a lot of the momentum around LinkedIn and the fact that it kind of has become this... Its identity has really changed. It's not just kind of a platform for job updates and networking anymore. It's really a social platform in and of itself, and there's a whole push into the creator economy that I'm sure we'll get into as well. So yeah, I mean I think ever since really the pandemic, maybe even earlier, we've kind of seen LinkedIn shift in this way. And people certainly have their opinions around how much people should be sharing on LinkedIn, especially when you get into people's personal lives and that line between work and life and all of that. But I think, in terms of LinkedIn's identity, yes it is certainly a social platform in my opinion. And I think advertisers are definitely treating it that way.

Marcus Johnson (10:58):

Yeah. Jasmine?

Jasmine Enberg (10:59):

Yeah. I mean I think the article misses the larger point that Minda was just alluding to, which is the lines between personal and professional have blurred, right? And so our personal life is increasingly intertwined with our careers and with our work life, and building a personal brand has become vital to the career path. And the place that people go to do that is LinkedIn. And there was actually a really great piece by Lia Haberman who writes a really great newsletter called In Case You Missed It, and there's this new trend on TikTok that she was talking about where young women are really trading LinkedIn profiles to encourage each other to go onto the platform, follow each other, and help build their personal brands there. And I think there's no better example of just how much our work and personal lives have become intertwined.

Marcus Johnson (11:52):

Mm-hmm.

Jasmine Enberg (11:52):

And there's really no escaping that, right? If LinkedIn wants to keep up with the way that the professional sector is transforming, it needs more personal content, and it has really started to cater to this. I think it was last week that it rolled out ad revenue sharing, for example, for creators on its short video feed. And so I imagine we're just going to see a lot more of this personal content. I still think that it strikes a different tone than say on TikTok, and part of that is because even if it is personal, it's still somehow connected to the business world in some way.

Marcus Johnson (12:28):

Yeah.

Jasmine Enberg (12:28):

And also because most people understand that their bosses, or their future bosses, are on the platform, so they may behave a little bit differently than they might on an Instagram or a TikTok.

Minda Smiley (12:37):

Yeah.

Marcus Johnson (12:37):

Can it hold onto that professionalism? I mean you mentioned tone, but the piece was saying as well, "The flood of content risks trapping LinkedIn into quagmires it has thus far avoided. More news and debate could politicize a platform that strives to stay above the fray."

Jasmine Enberg (12:56):

Absolutely. I mean I think that is a valid point that the article makes, for sure. One of the things that LinkedIn has been avoiding, or at least not promoting, is political content, and it's for that very reason. But as any platform scales and becomes more personal, inevitably that's going to enable more bad actors, more toxic content. And so that is a challenge that LinkedIn is certainly going to face. I will say, I mean I've been using LinkedIn regularly since about the end of '22. It still feels much safer and more welcoming than most other platforms. However, there has been a marked shift in the tone too of some users. But again, that's an inevitability when you have a platform that is growing and bringing new people into the experience, new types of content.

Minda Smiley (13:43):

I agree. And I think that even when you talk about politics or more personal stuff, there's always that risk for it for the content to become less friend safe as we would say. But I do think there's still... Even when you compare it to a TikTok, to a Meta platform, I think someone described it to me once as like, "People just tend to play nice on LinkedIn a little bit more." Even if they are talking about touchier subjects, they do understand that their colleagues and their bosses are on there. They're not going to maybe phrase things the way they maybe would on different platforms. So while they are becoming more exposed to some of that, I still think just the nature of the tone of the platform is going to protect them from some of that a little bit.

Marcus Johnson (14:20):

Do we think this is more... Finally on LinkedIn, do we think this is more to do with the fact, as the piece was saying, that Meta's decision to reduce visibility of news on its platform, X with its troubles, other places where people would've got that news and pushed content has kind of gone away and so LinkedIn has benefited? Or do we think that LinkedIn specifically working on things promoting that side of it is gotten them to this point?

Jasmine Enberg (14:42):

I mean, both things can be true, right?

Marcus Johnson (14:44):

Mm-hmm.

Jasmine Enberg (14:44):

And I suspect that they are. I think LinkedIn got an initial boost from all the troubles that X... I was going to say Twitter, I still can't get out of that mindset. And we wrote about that extensively back then, right? People were moving away from X and joining LinkedIn. A lot of them were doing so begrudgingly. LinkedIn still does have this reputation for being more cringe than other platforms, but it really leaned into that and helped facilitate engagement. And now we're seeing that Gen Z, for example, is one of the fastest growing user groups on the platform. Part of that is because they're entering the workforce, but they're also spending more time there and helping transform the content that we see there as well, including this short video push that we're seeing from LinkedIn.

Marcus Johnson (15:29):

Yeah.

Minda Smiley (15:30):

I also think it's worth noting that LinkedIn's done a really good job of investing in their editorial and their news division. They have a pretty robust division focused on news curating and whatnot. I'm sure you know like when you log on the top right I believe it is, they kind of curate headlines that are related to business news and larger news. So I think yes, what's going on in the other platforms has had an effect, but I think they've certainly invested quite a bit in becoming a leader in that area.

Marcus Johnson (15:57):

Yeah.

Jasmine Enberg (15:57):

The last thing I will say about LinkedIn, I promise, is that what I've heard from a lot of creators on there too is that content tends to have a longer shelf life. And I've noticed that myself as well.

Marcus Johnson (16:08):

Oh, interesting.

Jasmine Enberg (16:08):

So I can post something, and even a month later it will still be generating engagement. And I think a lot of that has to do also with LinkedIn's algorithm. And I will be honest and say that I haven't looked into it as extensively as say some of the other technology from Meta or from TikTok, but from my understanding they've invested heavily into AI to help improve their content recommendations. Initially to kind of demote those work anniversaries that LinkedIn is known for, and boost more relevant content. But I think it's also helping to impact the shelf life of a lot of this content, and creators of course really, really love that.

Marcus Johnson (16:49):

Yeah, that's a good take. They've gotten themselves to a good position. A lot of work to do. The piece was noting that not much time spent on the platform yet, but it's still early days. Sensor Tower was estimating that Android phone users with the LinkedIn app spend an average of only 48 minutes a month on it. TikTok is around 35 hours. So time spent is something they're going to be focusing on. However, at Microsoft, the owner, a heck of a purchase. The piece was also saying that they bought LinkedIn eight years ago for 26 billion, has grown revenue from 3 billion to 17. So a heck of an investment and a turnaround in a relatively short space of time.

(17:27):

Let's move to Pinterest. Ninth overall, just under a percentage point of digital advertising in America. Eric Hal Schwartz of TechRadar was noting that, "Pinterest has some new AI tools that will help you shop by visuals and vibes." He explains that, "A growing number of pins on Pinterest will have specific pieces of an outfit or aesthetic highlighted with a shimmering animated glow. Click on say the plaid skirt or the blue jacket, and Pinterest will show you some of the words to describe the item and help you find more like it without you needing a fashion dictionary." Jasmine, how much does this move the "Pinterest is the shopping app destination" needle?

Jasmine Enberg (18:09):

I think what's always set Pinterest apart from the other social platforms is that people who come there tend to already be primed for shopping, or in a shopping mindset. They're doing things like renovating their house, or if you're like me trying to find inspiration for a summer formal wedding in Italy. If anyone has any tips, I am taking them.

Marcus Johnson (18:30):

Oh, tough life.

Jasmine Enberg (18:31):

And I think that the more Pinterest can streamline that path to purchase and make it easier to go from inspiration to conversion, the better it's going to be for their business. And I love the idea of being able to find more similar products quickly, and hopefully at varying price points. I mean we talked a little bit about the tariffs and all the economic uncertainty, and I think people are going to want a little bit of flexibility in terms of what they can buy. And so it remains to be seen exactly how all of this plays out, but I think it's a good move on their part, especially as their user base continues to grow, as we saw in their earnings just last week.

Marcus Johnson (19:11):

Yeah. Minda?

Minda Smiley (19:13):

Yeah. I mean I think investing in search makes sense for them, investing in visual search, it definitely plays into this larger trend of social search, which we're seeing its bigger counterparts invest in. I was looking at their social shopping numbers earlier, and it looks like out of people that use Pinterest around 23% of them are social shoppers, meaning they've purchased something on Pinterest in 2025 according to our figures in the US.

Marcus Johnson (19:36):

Interesting.

Minda Smiley (19:37):

That is lower than other platforms in terms of Instagram, Facebook, they have a larger portion of people being social shoppers. So I do think it kind of speaks to the fact that even though they are positioning themselves as a shopping platform, they might be lagging a little bit. But that also could be for a lot of different reasons, and they're still seeing growth in that area. We're clearly seeing them come out and invest in shopping in big ways. It's been part of a transformation for them that's been going on for a few years now. So they certainly have momentum, I think.

Marcus Johnson (20:06):

Mm-hmm.

Jasmine Enberg (20:06):

Yeah. And I think one of the reasons, Minda, to your point about Pinterest being lower than other social platforms in terms of social commerce, is that one of the challenges that it's had is the technology to power shopping on the platform. So yes, it's always been a place where people go for inspiration, but it's not until recently really that they've been focused on lower funnel ad formats, right?

Minda Smiley (20:26):

Yes.

Jasmine Enberg (20:27):

And at one point they were trying to roll out, if I remember correctly, a native checkout process that never fully panned out. And so they haven't had the same types of social commerce integrations. And I don't know if we've specifically talked about this, but I don't think it's necessary to have a native integrated checkout within the social platform, but it is really important to be able to drive people to a point of purchase directly from the content. And so if this is something that the new tool will enable, I think this could be really powerful for Pinterest going forward.

Marcus Johnson (21:04):

Mm-hmm.

Minda Smiley (21:05):

For sure.

Marcus Johnson (21:06):

We end with Reddit, the last social player we're talking about today. 0.3% slice, lands them in 23rd place, so quite far behind. However, our Jeremy Goldman points out that Reddit kicked off 2025 with a blowout quarter reporting a over 60% year-over-year revenue jump. And a return to profitability per its latest shareholder letter, going from nearly 600 million in the red to a 30 million profit. Minda, when we were talking about who to talk about and preparing for this episode, when we're discussing Reddit and what the big question here is, you'd said that really it's about Reddit and tariffs and why we think Reddit is well positioned right now to navigate tariffs, even though it's one of the smaller social platforms.

Minda Smiley (21:53):

Yeah. I mean it certainly isn't immune from all the uncertainty happening right now in the economy, but I do think out of these smaller platforms it does have a little bit more momentum right now, to be honest. There's just some excitement around it, and a lot of it has to do with Google. The fact that when people are searching for stuff within Google, Reddit is coming up quite a bit. That's something they've talked about a lot in their earnings, and it's a big reason why they're seeing more users flock to Reddit. These are logged out users, but they're still users. And then a lot of people are actually putting... People are searching on Google and just tacking on Reddit at the end, proactively trying to find Reddit threads related to different stuff they're searching, products they're searching, which is obviously something of interest to brands.

(22:35):

And even in addition to Google, the platform it went public last year, it's investing in its advertising business quite a bit. I actually wrote a report on Reddit earlier this year about all of this stuff that you can read. But yeah, the platform alone is just kind of having a bit of a moment, people are excited about it, so I think that will help it in this time of uncertainty. And also just the fact that people do often go to Reddit for product recommendations, for reviews, and in a time where people are maybe being a little bit more discerning about their purchases. They might go to Reddit to say, "Hey, I'm really looking for a coffee maker, but I don't want to spend this much money and blah, blah, blah," and people will respond. And so it's well positioned in that way too, since it is such a hub for product and service reviews.

Marcus Johnson (23:21):

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jeremy Goldman, I think I mentioned earlier, was writing, "Reddit is starting to shake off its image as a quirky internet forum, and is making a credible case as a performance driven ad partner. Its AI investments paired with growing advertiser of trust suggests that Reddit isn't just growing, it's maturing." Jasmine, what's your take on this?

Jasmine Enberg (23:42):

Yeah. I think Minda is right. I do think the Google reliance that Reddit has is a little bit of a double-edged sword. So it has certainly helped it drive more traffic to its site, but being too reliant on any third party is never good for any platform because if that third party makes changes to its business or its operations that could ultimately impact traffic that is going to Reddit, in the case of Reddit and Google. But yes, I mean I think it is a platform that a lot of advertisers are excited about. I think people just want information about everything that's going on in the world, as well as products, right?

Marcus Johnson (24:26):

Mm-hmm.

Jasmine Enberg (24:27):

And Reddit has put itself into a prime position to get a lot of that activity. And if they can capitalize on it with new ad formats and strongly performing ad formats, I think it's in a good position to navigate a lot of this turmoil.

Marcus Johnson (24:41):

This stat blew me away. So Reddit, according to SEMrush and DataReportal, Reddit... They tracked the world's most visited sites as of November 2024. Reddit is sixth, of all sites people visit, sixth. Google, YouTube, Facebook, Wikipedia I think is in fourth, and then Instagram. They're the only ones it's behind. It's ahead of Bing, ChatGPT, Netflix, X, all of those. And nearly twice as many people visit Reddit as visit Amazon.

Jasmine Enberg (25:25):

And it's real people, right?

Marcus Johnson (25:27):

Yeah.

Jasmine Enberg (25:27):

I think that's the other thing that sets Reddit apart. And if you think about, I mean this is really thinking more philosophically about what's going on in the world, but the lack of trust in media and institutions has made people just turn to real people more. And I think Reddit is in a good position from that as well.

Marcus Johnson (25:45):

Yeah.

Minda Smiley (25:45):

Yeah.

Marcus Johnson (25:46):

It's real people giving real recommendations.

Minda Smiley (25:48):

Yeah, I agree. I was going to say, I think its anonymity is also kind of a double-edged sword, or at least has been in the past. But I think that's something people are really craving right now, because since the users are anonymous they're just offering real advice. There's no bias, there's no pressure to present this perfect life as we see on Instagram or other platforms. I mean I belong to so many parenting subreddits, and it's just parents venting and talking and sharing advice. It all feels very raw, very real, and I think we are in a moment where people are just really craving that kind of content. So that's another reason why we're seeing it have a lot of momentum right now.

Marcus Johnson (26:23):

Yeah.

Jasmine Enberg (26:23):

Minda, in your conversations with advertisers about Reddit, does brand safety still come up? I mean that was such a big concern a couple of years ago, but I feel like the noise around that has started to quiet down.

Minda Smiley (26:33):

From advertisers I've talked to, I think Reddit's done a pretty good job of coming out and making it clear that they've made some big changes in this space and that they are addressing it, that they're taking it seriously, and giving advertisers some comfort and ease around, "We know this is an issue we're dealing with, but we're working on it. It's getting better." And so I think advertisers are slowly but surely getting more comfortable with being on the platform. If anything, the thing I've heard is I think there's still this idea that users hate ads. I think on Reddit in particular, it's kind of been an issue of this just anti-advertising attitude. And so a lot of advertisers that run paid ads on Reddit do turn the comments off, which we'll see if the tide changes there. But I've heard that from a lot of marketers being like, "We're getting our clients on there, but they don't want the comments on. They don't want to know what people are saying."

Jasmine Enberg (27:21):

And I think that speaks to something that you wrote in the report about Reddit not being a set it and forget it platform, where you have to be a little bit more creative about how you're showing up there as a brand.

Minda Smiley (27:32):

Yes, for sure.

Jasmine Enberg (27:33):

Does that still apply? Hmm.

Minda Smiley (27:35):

Yeah, exactly.

Marcus Johnson (27:37):

Yeah. Reddit in a very good position it seems. We expect strong ad revenue growth as well, this year 35% next year 27%. For context, the four players we talked about, TikTok, LinkedIn, Pinterest, and Reddit combined are... You could say, "Only a third the size of Meta." Or you could say, "Impressively, they are a third the size of the giant that is Meta." So that's some context for you as to where they sit.

(28:04):

That's all we have time for today, though. Thank you so much to my guests for talking with me today. Thank you first to Minda.

Minda Smiley (28:09):

Thank you.

Marcus Johnson (28:10):

And to Jasmine.

Jasmine Enberg (28:11):

Thanks for having me.

Marcus Johnson (28:12):

Thanks to the whole editing crew, Victoria, John Lance, and Danny Stewart who runs the team, and Sophie who does our social media. Thanks to everyone for listening in to Behind the Numbers, an EMARKETER video podcast made possible by GIPHY. Subscribe and follow if you like more. If you're like, "Marcus, I have too many podcasts already." Get rid of one, all right? And just swap us in. Tune in Wednesday to hang out with Sarah and the retail people as they discuss how tariffs are affecting the circular economy.