Suzy Davidkhanian (00:05):

Hi everyone. Today is Wednesday, May 6th. Welcome to EMARKETER's weekly retail show, Reimagining Retail. This is the show where we talk about how retail collides with every part of our lives. I'm your host, Susie Davidkhanian, and on today's episode, we're breaking down some of the biggest themes shaping retail right now, from how people discover products to what actually is driving growth in an increasingly noisy market.

(00:29):

Joining me today, we have podcast regular senior analyst, Arielle Feger.

Arielle Feger (00:34):

Hey, happy to be here.

Suzy Davidkhanian (00:36):

I'm so happy to have you, and we're in our new studio that's coming along quite nicely.

Arielle Feger (00:40):

Woo.

Suzy Davidkhanian (00:41):

And joining us virtually, we have Sonal Gandhi, Chief Content Officer at The Lead.

Sonal Gandhi (00:46):

Hi. Thank you for having me.

Suzy Davidkhanian (00:48):

We're so excited to have you. And before we get into the episode, I thought maybe we could do a very quick, literally 30 seconds or less, speed intro. Tell us in a sentence, what do you do?

Sonal Gandhi (01:01):

I program The Lead Summit, which is a 3000 person conference for brands in New York City in May.

Suzy Davidkhanian (01:10):

That's so cool. So one more quick question. What's your favorite book? Podcast, TV, show right now, movie, your pick, one.

Sonal Gandhi (01:19):

So I'm in the middle of programming the summit, I don't have a lot of time. Oh, fair. But I did see this movie recently that's been like my movie of the year. I was a little late to it, but The Secret Agent, which was nominated heavily. Didn't get the ultimate Oscar, but I would've liked it too. But that was a phenomenal movie.

Arielle Feger (01:43):

I got to check that out. I haven't seen it.

Suzy Davidkhanian (01:44):

Wait, who's in it? Because I'm so bad at movies.

Sonal Gandhi (01:48):

It's a Brazilian movie, based in the '70s. It's the story about this one person who's-

Suzy Davidkhanian (01:55):

Oh, I think I know it.

Sonal Gandhi (01:57):

... life is upside down because of the...

Suzy Davidkhanian (02:00):

And do they have a child in the movie?

Sonal Gandhi (02:04):

There is a child in the movie, but not a very big role for the child. No.

Suzy Davidkhanian (02:09):

Got to have to look into it.

Arielle Feger (02:11):

Are you thinking about the one about the mom?

Suzy Davidkhanian (02:13):

I mean, I'm thinking about the one where, it's on Amazon Prime.

Sonal Gandhi (02:18):

I don't know about that.

Suzy Davidkhanian (02:20):

Oh, then I don't know what I'm thinking about.

Sonal Gandhi (02:21):

I saw it in a theater, but -

Suzy Davidkhanian (02:22):

Oh, you saw it in theaters.

Sonal Gandhi (02:24):

Yeah. It was excellent, excellent movie.

Arielle Feger (02:27):

That's good to know. I definitely have to check it out. I've heard very good things about it.

Suzy Davidkhanian (02:31):

Same. Not about the good things. I've never heard of it, but I will have to check it out myself.

(02:37):

Okay, you guys. So I'm going to bring us back to this week. We're going to step away from the headlines to look at the themes that are shaping retail right now. Again, from how people are discovering things to understanding where brands should actually be investing their money.

(02:51):

There is no shortage of big ideas between AI, creators, community, but not all of them are having the same impact for retailers.

(03:00):

So today, let's dig into what that really means, what's real, what's noise, and what actually matters for brands. So to kick us off, I thought we would do a different take on this idea of keep or cut. So is this theme over hyped or underrated? I'm going to throw out some themes and then we're going to do it in sequence.

(03:22):

You're going to tell me if this is over or underrated, and then you're going to give me a quick why, and then we'll move on to the next theme. First one, one of my favorites, I hope that we're all aligned, loyalty programs. Arielle, let's start with you.

Arielle Feger (03:36):

So I'm cheating, as I always do on this podcast, and I'm going to say it's appropriately rated.

Suzy Davidkhanian (03:44):

No, I mean I wanted you guys to pick a side.

Arielle Feger (03:47):

If I have to pick a side, I will say underrated. I think that loyalty programs, as a tool, and I'm kind of thinking a little more in the weeds here, not just as a theme, but things we can learn from. I think that there's a lot to be learned from in terms of loyalty programs when it's done right. It's incredibly useful for both the brand side and the consumer side. And I think that is the best case scenario where you've got to win-win.

(04:20):

Obviously, if done not as well, it doesn't provide value to both parties, but I think that there's a lot of room to improve and really hone in on that equal relationship between brand and consumer. So I think that there's more there.

Sonal Gandhi (04:39):

I'm going to start with disagreeing with Arielle.

Arielle Feger (04:42):

Oh no, no, please.

Sonal Gandhi (04:45):

I think they're overrated, especially in this new avatar of loyalty programs, where it's all about experiences and special tickets to our openings. And I think most people like to get something free for showing their loyalty.

(05:03):

And when you get your 10 manicures and you get your 11th one free, that is why you keep going back. And it's true for the airlines. It has always been true. I think offer customers a discount and keep it simple, especially in this age where everything is about value, everything's expensive and people are trying to cut corners. I think keep it simple, don't overthink it, and communicate what the value proposition is and that's it.

Suzy Davidkhanian (05:33):

It's interesting because now that I think about the instructions, over hyped or underrated, it's kind of confusing, right? Because I think personally, loyalty programs are critical, and so you have to spend time on it.

(05:47):

But to your point, Sonal, I do think that there is, and I just hosted a table where there was this whole discussion around, there are rewards programs and then there are loyalty programs and those are not quite the same. At the end of the day, they're definitely a data infrastructure, so you've got to make sure you have something in that scheme.

(06:05):

Next up, guys, I obviously picked all my favorite topics. Direct to consumer as a primary channel. Sonal.

Sonal Gandhi (06:14):

Overrated. I think you got to be everywhere the consumer is. I know it's the most cliche thing in retail for the last 15 years, but the consumer doesn't care. If they want your brand, and they go to your website and it says five to seven days to ship, and they can find it on Amazon, get it right now, you've made that consumer happy and that's all really matters. So I think this whole idea of, we're only on our side, is just old.

Suzy Davidkhanian (06:44):

Love it.

Arielle Feger (06:45):

And once again, I'm going to disagree. We've got some good stuff going here.

Suzy Davidkhanian (06:52):

I'm shocked.

Arielle Feger (06:52):

Well, I was thinking about it a little bit differently. While I do agree with Sonal about, you need to be everywhere, you really got to be where the customer is. I think D2C, kind of in terms of like its value as like a first party data vehicle, is really not to be understated. I think it's incredibly important for brands to have that data on their customers, to be able to know them, know what they want, know what they're looking for.

(07:22):

And I think having a strong D2C channel is a really, really good way to build up that data. So that's why I think it's underrated, but I agree that it can't be the only channel.

Suzy Davidkhanian (07:37):

Interesting. I think everybody knows what I think about this, which is, it cannot be the only channel and the wholesale is back and there's a reason why there are marketplaces. Next, TikTok shop. Arielle.

Arielle Feger (07:51):

I'm going underrated. Susie's giving me eye looks.

Suzy Davidkhanian (07:57):

I'm sorry. I'm just like so shocked by the answers.

Arielle Feger (08:00):

This is great. I think that it's definitely gaining recognition. It's certainly not where it was maybe a year ago, but I think a lot of the beginning was brands were feeling it was a little bit like, sorry, Temu, a little bit just overwhelmed with cheap goods or whatever. But we've seen some really established brands hopping onto TikTok shop. I mean, we're seeing sales rise. Momentum is really building.

(08:32):

So I think that, like we said, this is another channel I think it's just really important to be in right now.

Sonal Gandhi (08:40):

Yeah. I agree with that one. I'm not going to disagree. I think that people like to buy products that they see being romanced. You want someone to tell you that story, and those short form videos have just all taken over our minds right now. So if you're not when people are scrolling and going through these videos, you're losing out on a huge opportunity.

Suzy Davidkhanian (09:05):

Speaking of huge opportunity, next up, agentic commerce. Sonal.

Sonal Gandhi (09:11):

Me? All right. I think underrated. I know there's a lot of hype about it, but I think that, if you think about product discovery, it is severely underrated, because it's changing discovery everywhere. It's how you shop on Amazon. It's how you search on Google. Even if you never use a agentic engine, the way you talk to the computer has changed. So I think all of that is for product discovery, it's underrated.

(09:45):

For transactions, I am not really sure. I don't know if I want someone to buy stuff for me without me intervening. You remember the days when Amazon put this button together where if you run out of toilet paper and you press the button.

Suzy Davidkhanian (10:03):

The easy button?

Sonal Gandhi (10:04):

The easy button. I'd say this is probably we're in the easy button era right now. Yeah, maybe someday you will have Alexa buy stuff for you automatically or whoever, but I think that's over hyped.

Arielle Feger (10:25):

Yeah. When I talk about agentic commerce, I'm going into it with the specific definition of true end to end. An agent, you give an agent a prompt, it finds it, it buys it, and that's it. It has your payment information. And in that definition, I think it's over-hyped.

(10:45):

I don't think that at least for the next foreseeable future, we're going to see a meaningful adoption of true agentic commerce, where agents are buying on behalf of consumers. Now, AI chatbots, yeah, that's definitely, as Sonal said, it's really changing how people search, but I think if we're talking true agent to agent commerce, then I think it's overhyped.

Suzy Davidkhanian (11:14):

And the last one in this series, celebrity partnerships, Arielle.

Arielle Feger (11:20):

I'm going over hyped. And maybe I'm just still burnt from the Sydney Sweeney thing.

Suzy Davidkhanian (11:28):

Oh my God, you're just bringing back a flashback of our retail awards.

Arielle Feger (11:32):

Well, it's on the top of my mind because I was listening to it this morning.

Suzy Davidkhanian (11:35):

Oh, yes.

Arielle Feger (11:37):

I think there is no more monoculture. I think it's hard to find a celebrity that is so beloved to everyone that it's just going to make everything... Everyone's going to want to buy your product. I think you are almost inviting just as much controversy sometimes as you are with adoring fans with certain celebrities like Sydney Sweeney. So I think it's overhyped. I'm much more into the kind of niche creators, smaller creators, influencers. I think those can really move the needle in more meaningful ways.

Sonal Gandhi (12:14):

Yeah. I agree with Arielle, but I think there are instances where it works, right? Where you're a relatively unknown brand, that suddenly finds a big celebrity to vouch for you, that works. And especially in the case of sports celebrities that are getting into endorsement, like niche sports, I'm not talking your typical MLB player, but the sports that are suddenly ticking off and their celebrities, I think those are like women basketball players and things like that. I think that has some potential for some brands, but overall, it's, I think, overhyped.

Suzy Davidkhanian (12:58):

It's about authenticity at the end, right? If you can make sure that the tie-in feels good and right, then it works. But if there's that weird undertone, or like the Sweeney one I was thinking about, but for many reasons, right? It could feel like there is fatigue from a consumer lens.

Arielle Feger (13:18):

Yeah. A green [inaudible 00:13:21].

Suzy Davidkhanian (13:20):

Interesting. Okay. So I'm switching gears to my next question, which is, if you had to call it, what's the one thing, just one, that most brands are getting wrong right now when it comes to discovery, and what is the first thing or one of the first things, that's a little bit harder to have an absolute, but what's one of the first things that they can do to fix that wrong?

Sonal Gandhi (13:42):

All right. I think site search continues to be just not, not working, especially now that people are using phrases and everything you start is find me, tell me, what is... I don't see those working. Please don't make me go through your different ways of navigating your website and filter this and filter that. Come on now, just make the site search work.

(14:16):

And it is such a lost opportunity if you have the product and the customer and they can't meet each other. So for me, that's what it needs to improve. And I think that's starting with the metadata, and how you are surfacing those products and working with a good vendor to like making sure that your products are coming up in the way consumers search.

Suzy Davidkhanian (14:38):

I had not thought about that, but I always think about the filters and the search, just in general, even before AI and conversational, this was already marginally broken with the dropdown that doesn't always fit. Even if you think about our Macy's days where people don't search for denim, they search for jeans, right? And so like you have to have the right words and the right things that are tagged. Now there's this complexity, where your product page is both a merchandising sort of exercise plus a search exercise. It is fascinating. Arielle.

Arielle Feger (15:11):

So I'm kind of going with like a philosophy of vibe. I don't know.

Suzy Davidkhanian (15:15):

I love it. Bring it on.

Arielle Feger (15:17):

I think, and this is an emerging conversation as we've... And I'll give a little preview of something I might be talking about with, at my Lead session, but it's not just about showing up. It's kind of about like following through with context. And I'm kind of still trying to figure out how I'm talking about this. I saw someone recently at an event who talked about, well, if you are sending a consumer from an influencer video, the product page that you're sending them to should really match with the attributes of that video. What were they talking about? What were the product attributes?

(16:01):

And I thought that was such a really good insight to match kind of the contextual path to purchase of what's happening. Where did this customer start and how are you following through with that to get them to purchase? I don't know how to fix it. And I'm sorry to say that.

Sonal Gandhi (16:21):

You're asking for too much. I think most of the time you click on an ad for a product and they land you somewhere that is not even the product.

Arielle Feger (16:29):

I know.

Sonal Gandhi (16:30):

We're like so behind.

Arielle Feger (16:33):

I'm pie in the skying. I'm definitely idealizing a bit, but I like to think big. So it would be really cool if we could figure out how are we being more tailored and personalized across the journey.

Suzy Davidkhanian (16:50):

And for whoever's listening to fix this problem, I also don't understand why I still get ads on, yes, I play video games on my phone, like those casual ones, right? I get ads for things I've already bought, which I understand that the ad placer doesn't always, the like, third party placer doesn't always get my data of what I've purchased.

(17:10):

But there's got to be an easy fix to understand where I've converted already versus not, which at the end of the day is similar to what you're saying. You're saying, Arielle, give me more than curation and personalization, make it relevant to me and the context that you've already brought me into your fold. I think it's a data point.

Arielle Feger (17:27):

It's been asking a lot, I guess.

Suzy Davidkhanian (17:28):

It's literally legacy systems and new systems not talking to each other. And then also, I was at an event where I was talking about returns, and the person was telling me that they are trying to figure that out as well because it's two different teams that are taking care of it. So again, if something keeps getting returned, there's a chance something's wrong with the product and the product people don't know about it. And like how do you get people talking to each other?

Sonal Gandhi (17:52):

Yeah.

Suzy Davidkhanian (17:53):

It's a tough one. I have another tough one. Based on what you guys are seeing today, and all the things that you're doing, what's one idea retailers should be copying right now, and what's one thing that they should be skipping? Arielle.

Arielle Feger (18:08):

So one thing I think they should be copying is investing in the in store experience. We've seen, I know Target is kind of one of the bigger retailers out there that is like very publicly making a reinvestment in their stores and their store associates. And one of my colleagues actually just anecdotally said, she went to Lululemon. She was in the fitting room and she needed a different size, and they were right there to go and help her and bring her another size.

(18:39):

And it's just that simple. Just having people available to help you having enough people in the store, and really just like making that shopping experience feel more special, I think that really goes a long way.

(18:54):

In terms of skipping, I think ultra-fast delivery, I don't think that the majority of people... I mean, yes, there's certainly some occasions in some categories that will benefit from ultra-Fast delivery, but for the most part, do I need that shirt in an hour? No. I just think it's not necessarily something that's needed or wanted. And so I think that that investment could be used elsewhere.

Suzy Davidkhanian (19:25):

Like for the store. I love that because you're not even talking about extra activations. You're just saying, make the store look clean, make sure that there are enough people that help me. I happen to know Lululemon well. They put your name on a little chalkboard. It's like a whole, make me feel special vibe, that you're saying we should go back to basics.

Arielle Feger (19:45):

Basics. Yeah.

Suzy Davidkhanian (19:48):

Sonal, what about you?

Sonal Gandhi (19:48):

Yeah. So I'm going to reverse it, because I have a store comment about skipping. So I like the idea of going back to basics. Have the products, have the people treat you nicely when you go in as a customer, keep it clean and simple.

(20:05):

I think there are some brands that just over and over design it. I think that just spend too much like, this reminds you of the subways of New York City, or the team stores. I think that's just an Instagram moment that you can skip.

(20:23):

I think it's good to get the hype going that you have a new store out, but I think that just... I mean, there's so many things written about these nicely designed stores, but sometimes you go in there and there's no one to help you and they're really just stressed because all these customers are coming in and they can't deal. I think that's a negative experience. And so people, invest in the people and not the overtly designed stuff.

(20:51):

And I think the one that I would like to keep is, what I hear a lot in our conversations with a lot of the executives that I talk to when I program the summit, it's like, don't try to be everything to everybody. Really try to now go and find those niche consumers that have this affinity for your brand for a reason. Find why they like your brand, and then really try to find those tribes and find, and then message to them.

(21:21):

An example, like I'm scrolling at night and you watch these videos and they're always like, five things you need to have in your makeup drawer to look like a no makeup look, whatever. But then this video comes up and says, "Five Charlotte Tilbury lipstick colors that are great for Indian skin." I was like, "Oh, this speaks to me. I love this brand." And they're talking to my skin color.

(21:45):

Now that's not niche because there's a half a billion Indian women in the world, but there's only so many in the US, so I felt like they were talking to me. And so, I think that, like they find those tribes and their affinities to your brand and really go deep in that. Because you can, technology data allows you to understand the customer much better than you did, and you don't have to personalize, but you have to find those niche communities within your consumer base. That, I think, is something to copy.

Suzy Davidkhanian (22:22):

I think that's a great place to leave it. Find your niche tribes. Whether they're niche or not, it doesn't matter. Just find your people and be authentic and find the right partners so that you can showcase your product. Some of the most basic retail principles.

Sonal Gandhi (22:38):

Yes.

Suzy Davidkhanian (22:38):

Critical.

Sonal Gandhi (22:39):

Yes.

Suzy Davidkhanian (22:40):

Thank you so much for joining us and all.

Sonal Gandhi (22:43):

Yeah, thank you. This was so much fun.

Suzy Davidkhanian (22:45):

Thanks, Arielle.

Arielle Feger (22:46):

Thank you.

Suzy Davidkhanian (22:47):

And thank you to our listeners and to our team that edits the podcast. Please leave a rating or review and remember to subscribe. I'll see you for more Reimagining Retail next Wednesday. And on Friday, join Marcus for another episode of Behind the Numbers.