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Marcus Johnson: [00:00:00] This episode is sponsored by Verve, an ad solution that helps brands activate consumer intent in real time across platforms. As AI reshapes how people plan vacations, Verve helps travel brands show up when it counts. Find out more at verve.com. Join EMARKETER’s The Future of Digital Summit on September 15th, coming soon, in New York City for a full day of research, expert analysis, and executive conversations on AI visibility, commerce, media, and the future of marketing.

Marcus Johnson: Click the registration link in the show notes for tickets.

Marcus Johnson: It's Friday, September 11th. Min and Max and listeners, welcome to Behind the Numbers, the EMARKETER podcast made possible by Verve. I'm Marcus, and joining me for today's conversation we have two social media experts. Uh, two of our, I should say. Senior Analyst, living in New York City, Minda Smiley.

Minda Smiley: Hey, Marcus.

Minda Smiley: How are you?

Marcus Johnson: Hello. I'm very well. How are you?

Minda Smiley: Good, good.

Marcus Johnson: No guest never asked me that.

Minda Smiley: I'm so polite.

Marcus Johnson: [00:01:00] Pittsburghers-

Minda Smiley: Thank you. I know, finally ... we're nice, we're

Marcus Johnson: nice people. That Ross guy, that's the one who never asks. Uh, we're also joined by Principal Analyst, living in Philadelphia, who if he doesn't ask me how I am will be my second favorite guest on this episode, Max Willens.

Max Willens: Yo. How's it going?

Marcus Johnson: No, no, no, no, no. Too late.

Max Willens: Eh. Don't wanna seem too eager.

Marcus Johnson: Today's fact

Marcus Johnson: Who invented the potato chip? Ah, AKA the crisp, as it's known overseas. Credit goes to George... I didn't think I'd be able to figure this one out. I thought this is one of those things where you're like, "That's not..." You know, so, like, myths about who... No, it's, uh, this is, here's the story. George Crum, born George Speck, in 1853 at Moon's Lake House in Saratoga Springs, New York.

Marcus Johnson: Whilst working as a chef, a fussy customer complained that his french-fried potatoes were [00:02:00] too thick and soft. To spite the customer That's a shame. Crum sliced the potatoes paper thin, fried them until they were crispy, and added a lot of salt. But instead of being angry the customer loved them, and the snack quickly became known as Saratoga chips.

Minda Smiley: That's a very- Huh ... funny backstory.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah.

Minda Smiley: Why?

Marcus Johnson: It wasn't until la- There was, um... So someone invented the, the packet that... 'Cause they used to just come in a barrel. Um, someone invented the packet that they come in to keep them fresher. Um, but then it was Mr. Lay's who came along and figured out how to market them, and that's why Lay's is now synonymous with chips, crisps.

Marcus Johnson: But Mr. Crum, or Speck, thank you to

Max Willens: you. I, I can't believe that the Saratoga part didn't stick. I like the name Saratoga.

Marcus Johnson: Saratoga chips?

Max Willens: Yeah, Saratoga chips. Yeah.

Marcus Johnson: It's- That's kinda cool ...

Max Willens: get some Saratogas. Maybe that's too much of a mouthful. [00:03:00] Well, I th- I thought you were gonna say he put poison on them, and, uh- Oh, good God

Max Willens: I was like, "Well, then I guess that's why it didn't stick." No. Yeah.

Minda Smiley: What's your

Max Willens: favorite- It was only when they took the arsenic off the chips- ... that they gained quickly in popularity. But...

Minda Smiley: Okay, quickly, what's everyone's favorite flavor? Now I'm just intrigued. Favorite-

Max Willens: Oh, golly.

Minda Smiley: Mine's salt and vinegar.

Marcus Johnson: Yes.

Marcus Johnson: That's the right answer. Yeah. Max, we don't care what you have to say.

Max Willens: Well, the two of you are right, so I don't have to argue with you.

Marcus Johnson: Perfect. Yes. Yeah. Susie would say ketchup flavored, 'cause she's Canadian. Ugh.

Minda Smiley: Ugh, that sounds horrible.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah.

Max Willens: Um-

Marcus Johnson: The "Ugh" was for ketchup flavored chips. I love the Canadians.

Marcus Johnson: Anyway, today's real topic.

Marcus Johnson: Reddit's growing importance. Katie Dayton of The Journal writes that the AI revolution has transformed Reddit from an afterthought in many marketers' digital strategies to their social media site du jour. Executives are racing to make sure their brands are recommended by AI chatbots, and Reddit is the most cited website in AI answers according to AI visibility data firm Parse.

Marcus Johnson: But just because [00:04:00] brands are racing to get through the door doesn't mean they are particularly welcome. "We don't want to hear from you when we're gossiping about you," says social media consultant Rachel Carton. Uh, Minda, how can brands participate without, uh, in Reddit, without feeling like an ad crashed the party?

Minda Smiley: Yeah. Well, that's like the big question, right? And it's not easy. Um, you know, obviously if you're doing paid advertising, that's one thing, and I'm sure we'll get into that. Organically, which is what we're talking about, it's really hard and there's really only like a handful of examples that I feel like I'm always routinely citing of brands that I feel like have, um, been able to crack it.

Minda Smiley: Um, I would say like this is maybe going to sound a little bit counterintuitive, 'cause I feel like so much of the conversation around, around Reddit is like that users can be kind of snarky and they're not, you know, very adverse. But like I do feel like the brands that are going to have success there, um, are like coming at it from a more earnest perspective and like just genuinely trying to find ways to help, even if it's like [00:05:00] literally just through like customer service and like customer support, which I know is like the least sexy thing and is not what like organic social media managers want to hear.

Minda Smiley: But, but it is the reality. Like the reality, I mean, the brands that I feel like have found some traction there and, and ha- have come up with strategies are the ones that are like literally just playing the long game- Yeah ... and are there to just answer questions, be helpful. Yeah. Ma- Um, but yeah, that's, it's, it's not- No

Minda Smiley: it's not the most, uh, it, it's al- not the most exciting

Marcus Johnson: way to do that. No, but I think you're spot on. Max, I love the word sh- uh, Minda used there, help, 'cause, uh, Johnny Wait, CEO and co-founder of Reddit agency Retro says, "Reddit organic content can't be promotional. It has to offer some objective helpfulness."

Marcus Johnson: Encouraging markers, he says marketers should spend a lot of time on the platform just kind of hanging out and understanding the nuances and etiquettes of various subreddits. Um, what are your thoughts around how marketers and advertisers, brands can show up on Reddit without being unwelcome?

Max Willens: Yeah. I think that Minda's summarized the points that I was gonna make really, really well.

Max Willens: [00:06:00] I think that, you know, one of the things, we'll talk about this a little bit more later, but like one of the sort of things that I think differentiates Reddit from a lot of other social networks is that- A lot of people do regard it as a resource as much as they regard it as, you know, a place to entertain themselves.

Max Willens: Uh, and because of that framing and that sort of legacy that Reddit has as a platform, you really have to sort of approach it as a marketer from a sort of a service mindset, right? Like, what is the most helpful value-adding thing that I can do to the people that have congregated here? And I think that one thing that you've started to see a lot of folks do as a way to sort of start doing that is by creating branded subreddits where, that effectively, you know, serve as like a kind of an always on customer service channel, right?

Max Willens: Where if people wanna talk about your, your products or have questions about how they work or whatever, uh, you just have someone [00:07:00] on hand who, who can answer, uh, those questions in a way that's, that's helpful and honest and, and useful. Uh, because just trying to sort of be cute or, or winsome or, you know, spam different subreddits with cool information about your product is, is usually going to run you into trouble pretty quick

Marcus Johnson: Yeah.

Marcus Johnson: Um, Ms. Dayton from The Journal saying that companies, some companies have managed to crack the, the platform after years of work, primarily not, uh ... Sorry, primarily by not marketing their products at all. She has two examples. Audio brand Sonos, uh, for example, managed to instill goodwill within the Sonos subreddit by sending in a co-affiliated user known as Keith from Sonos to help with technical customer support problems and translate corporate announcements into everyday parlance.

Marcus Johnson: And also Fidelity. Uh, they built popular subreddits around its investment in crypto offerings by convening, uh, general finance discussions, uh, and publishing guides and tips. Minda, you said the examples that you've been citing, uh, there's, they're few and far, far [00:08:00] between. Uh, any others that jumped out to you in terms of, uh, brands that are doing a good job of being on Reddit?

Minda Smiley: Yeah. I mean, if, if you're kind of looking to go outside of the more, like, strictly customer support, uh, realm, I do think brands, um, that, um, making use of the, of like the AMA format, even if not in a formal way, but, like, just this idea of, like, bringing in people that can talk about the brands and, and really kind of thinking outside the box.

Minda Smiley: I mean, I, I can't remember the brand that did this, but I ... And I think it's ki- become relatively common, but, like, if you're a skincare brand and you wanna talk to people who are interested in skincare on Reddit, like, bring in the person that, like, worked on the actual formulation of the product. Mm. Like, don't send in your, uh, comms or PR or marketing person 'cause, like, people on Reddit often will wanna get in the weeds.

Minda Smiley: Good point. They wanna know exactly ... Like, especially on a topic like skincare where people c- you know, are very passionate about it and very particular about what they're putting on their skin. Like, they will come with a lot of knowledge, and they wanna ask questions, and they want someone to answer them, um, reliably.

Minda Smiley: So maybe bring in, like, that, that person that created the product and can, can talk about [00:09:00] each individual ingredient and, and the, and, and why they picked those ingredients. Like, it ... For a lot of people that might sound super boring, but, like, for certain communities- Mm ... that's, that's going to be super interesting.

Minda Smiley: And so I think brands need to be kinda thinking in that vein too. Like, who could we bring onto Reddit that would, um, kinda provide that, like, expertise that I do think a lot of people, uh, would value?

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Ms. Dayton again of The Journal noting moderators who were historically more lenient toward promotional posts have started pushing back after a deluge of Reddit posts designed to ma- ma- manipulate AI search results.

Marcus Johnson: Um, one moderator of a software as a service subreddit recently wrote, "We as moderators and regular users have been suffering from the constant influx of promotional content, spam ads, and all sorts of campaigns that flood, uh, this and many other, uh, subs." What's happening here, Max, is that a lot of brands and marketers have, have caught onto the fact that, um- Search, uh, AI search is pulling from Reddit, and so they're [00:10:00] trying to make sure that they show up in those search results, AI search results, when people are looking for certain things.

Marcus Johnson: Uh, and that means that, uh, a lot of, uh, the, the promotional content is starting to find its way onto Reddit, uh, more so recently, uh, than it has in the past. How do brands need to behave today so that they can remain at the party?

Max Willens: So I think that this is gonna sound a little bit funny given that, you know, pseudonymity is one of the sort of defining characteristics of Reddit, but I think that sort of maximum transparency is probably a good policy, right?

Max Willens: You know, whipping up a bunch of burner accounts to plug your products or services might win you a couple of early, uh, you know, AI visibility wins. But over the medium to long-term it's a great recipe for, you know, getting those burners banned, maybe even having your, uh, goods or services as a topic banned from certain subreddits that you wanna be well-represented in.

Max Willens: So I think the, uh, [00:11:00] the Sonos example is actually a really good one, right? Where what you really wanna do is essentially find one or two accounts that effectively function like emissaries on the platform, and just sort of say, like, "Hi, I'm here to, you know, answer questions about, you know, the widgets that company X sells, and, uh, you know, I'm happy to have an open conversation with you about them.

Max Willens: And if you have questions you can hit me up." Um, and just effectively approach it from a, a position of making sure that there's as much kind of authoritative content as possible rather than trying to sort of, like, manufacture reality, uh, through, you know, kind of gray market tactics would be a, a f- suggestion that I would make.

Marcus Johnson: Minda, what makes Reddit so unique compared to its other social media counterparts?

Minda Smiley: Um, I, I think a lot really. I mean, I feel like for the most part it's still pretty text-heavy. Mm. I know they have incorporated video and images, but like, I mean, and of course when we ... I mean, I feel like we always say this when we talk about social, like it's hard not to kinda [00:12:00] use your own experience and how you use the platform.

Minda Smiley: For me, I tend to go like, I just tend to go to like a specific, um, subreddit, um, and, and, and read posts there, and a lot of the ones I follow are very, very text-heavy. Like the ... I'm like, I'm very ... Uh, I'm a lurker, I should say. I don't really post, but I, I follow like a toddler subreddit 'cause I have a toddler, and I just like to hear what other parents of toddlers are dealing with.

Minda Smiley: And like, it's mostly just like long, winding posts about people just like talk- you know, talking about all sorts of things, um, uh, related to raising a toddler. And so, uh, it's very text-heavy in that way and, and like winding too. Like it's just people kind of venting or, or just like asking for very specific questions.

Minda Smiley: Um, it's not a big place for creators. That's a, that's another big element that, that I think is a huge differentiator, um, from other social platforms. Um, the anonymity too. I mean, of course, o- other social platforms there are maybe degrees of anonymity, but that's like a very, a defining factor for Reddit.

Minda Smiley: Um, so yeah, I, I think it's, it's, it's very distinct in many ways.

Marcus Johnson: [00:13:00] Yeah. B- it not being a big platform for creators is, is seen as a, as a very good thing for a lot of the users on it. It, it's not commercial, there's no way of saying that. Hadi, uh, Mawajda, and Noah King of Vox saying, "Reddit is filled with pseudonymous strangers, and yet these people can somehow feel more trustworthy recommending a skincare product than an influencer hawking cleansers to millions of followers.

Marcus Johnson: Why? Because the random person on Reddit doesn't seem to have anything to sell you."

Max Willens: You can also go back and comb through their post history- Mm ... to see if what they say, uh- Yeah ... feels or smells credible to you. I have a sort of just a, uh ... I think the, the points that Minda made are, are super on point, but I also have a slightly more technical answer to what makes Reddit unique, um, which is w- a big reason why the, uh, LLMs love it so much, and the answer is that it's been indexed by Google for a long time, right?

Max Willens: I mean, like if I ... Th- there's probably if one were to, to, you know, make the effort, you could probably go in onto Facebook and find a Facebook group, [00:14:00] um, devoted to toddler, uh, raising, raising a toddler and, you know, probably find a thread of, on almost the exact same topic as the one that, you know, uh, Minda read about most recently.

Max Willens: But until quite recently, um- Meta was, did not allow its content to be indexed by Google, and so, uh, it m- means going and finding it means you gotta pop open Facebook, you gotta rummage around in the group section. But you can still, for now, use Google as a sort of a f- uh, a side door into Reddit- Mm-hmm

Max Willens: which is one of the main reasons why it's, uh, developed the way that it has, and also, again, why it's so immensely valuable to the LLMs because there's just this gigantic corpus of, you know, unvarnished regular person opinion about products, services, you know, holidays, um, information about how to build or maintain products.

Max Willens: Like, it's an immensely kind of unique, uh, corpus of information that, that has been [00:15:00] quite valuable and it's, it's not surprising that marketers are trying to- ... you know, pollute it the way that they love to pollute things that are valuable on the internet. I'm sorry, did I say pollute? I meant, um, you know, contribute to.

Max Willens: Um, well,

Marcus Johnson: two things quickly before we touch on that, that search part, 'cause I think it's really interesting. It, um, two things I was reading. One, it's good for discovery. Half of Reddit users said the platform is helpful for discovering something new according to Reddit. Two, good for fact-checking. Half of US shoppers surveyed said they use Reddit to verify AI recommendations.

Marcus Johnson: One in three UK people said the same. It's a place consumers can go to verify products and see honest reviews before purchase. Uh, two, uh, things that jumped out to me as well with regards to that. One, Reddit reported a 40% year-over-year increase in high-intent shopping conversations in March with 84% of users saying Reddit boosts, uh, purchase confidence.

Marcus Johnson: About 40% of conversations on the site relate to commercial activity, including shopping, said Jen Wong, Reddit's operations chief. And then also, uh, trust. US consumers were more likely to trust Reddit [00:16:00] for verifying AI recomm- AI recommendations than they were friends or family, 60 to 53% respectively. But to M- Max, to what you're saying, our newsletter, uh, writer Marissa Jones noting that Reddit is also, uh, highly v- uh, visible within AI search itself, as folks can see from this chart on the screen.

Marcus Johnson: The platform is the top-cited domain across ChatGPT search, Google AI mode, and Perplexity according to Semrush. Uh, others say YouTube. Uh, AI search results give them Reddit's content without the need to visit it, the site, uh, directly. Uh, Max, what is AI search's biggest impact on Reddit?

Max Willens: The two kind of biggest things to me are it raises the value of and the kind of profile of the data that they sit on, right?

Max Willens: So, uh, one of the sort of most consequential things that Reddit has done in the last several years was a licensing deal that they forged with Google several years ago, which basically gave Google, [00:17:00] um, unfettered access to all of its data for, to train Gemini. And in exchange, uh, all of Reddit's content got a little bit of, um, Google algorithm pixie dust sprinkled on it and, you know, appeared much more likely in SERPs.

Max Willens: Um, and Google also paid, uh, about $60 million a year, uh, as part of this arrangement. And I remember when that deal first came out, looking at it and going like, "Is there a zero missing from this announcement?" Like, why are they doing this for only $60 million? And even though the, the negotiations between Reddit and Google are ongoing because that deal is now on the, uh, about to expire pr- pretty soon, pretty much everyone I talk to expects that Reddit is not going to do this again for $60 million a year.

Max Willens: They are going to demand much, much, much more. The second thing I think that's really important to acknowledge is that it, it has proved, uh, that Reddit has a big opportunity to, um [00:18:00] Essentially, like, secure its position f- uh, in the future through its data, right? So, you know, a lot of p- uh, investors have become aware of the fact that, uh, the LLMs really, really like Reddit, uh, information, uh, and really, really trust it when formulating their responses.

Max Willens: And so the sort of degree to which Reddit is cited in ChatGPT responses, for example, has become kind of closely watched. And there was a news item, uh, about a month ago now when it, it came out that Reddit's citation rate in ChatGPT had dropped quite a bit, and it sent Reddit's stock tumbling, uh, in a way that I think sort of misses the nuance of, of how ChatGPT was using Reddit.

Max Willens: It wasn't so much that ChatGPT is using Reddit less, it was more that the way that it was using Reddit was changing. And, um, I think basically what I'm getting at is that, like, th- the biggest thing that this d- does is that it, it sort of, um, gives Reddit a strong [00:19:00] market signal that it should continue to d- do and be what it always has been, which is kind of a, a platform for community, focused community engagement on, on different topics.

Max Willens: Um, because in addition to the health of their ad business, which we'll talk about in a minute, they are now getting these strong signals from some of the biggest and soon-to-be richest companies in the world that that data is really, really, really valuable and really, really hard to get at the scale that Reddit has it anywhere else.

Marcus Johnson: Yes, and maybe 60 million isn't enough. I think OpenAI was paying 70 million. I know I, I was also sh- I had to check and I was like, "Uh, yeah, are those numbers accurate?" Um, yeah, I liked what Marissa had to say about this. She said, "AI-generated results may increasingly become the place where consumers get initial recommendations, whilst Reddit could remain the place where they pressure test those recommendations before, before purchasing."

Marcus Johnson: Um, Minda, Max mentioned the, the ad piece of this. Marissa Jones, uh, our newsletter writer, she [00:20:00] had, uh, this. "Reddit reported its eighth consecutive quarter of revenue growth in Q2, with revenues and ad growth continuing to climb. Despite that, investors remained concerned over potential fallout from an ongoing dispute with and declining referral traffic from Google," as Max was saying.

Marcus Johnson: "Reddit's current trajectory, uh, remains strong, evidenced by massive ad growth that well outpaces social competitors, and consistent strength in daily active uniques and weekly active uniques. But Reddit... Uh, but since Reddit's relationship with Google is a key driver of its stock valuation, restricting Google's access could threaten traffic engagement and a valuable revenue stream.

Marcus Johnson: If traffic comes under pressure, its value from, for advertisers may- As well. Minda, are you more optimistic or pessimistic regarding Reddit's future and revenue growth?

Minda Smiley: Um, uh, it's a great question. I'm actually very curious what Max has to say on this. Personally, I, I'm, like, cautiously- Mm ... optimistic. I, I think there are a lot of signs showing that, that Reddit has a lot of runway left.

Minda Smiley: I mean, it still only represents, like, I think, I don't know the exact number, but, like, [00:21:00] 2% of social network ad revenue-

Marcus Johnson: I think you're spot

Minda Smiley: on ... in the US. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so, like, I think it has a lot of room to grow. I think it's really on marketers' minds right now because of all the LLM stuff that Max was just talking about.

Minda Smiley: And so I think, like, that in and of itself, like, has just really put Reddit on a map i, in a way that I think marketers, like, f- you know, not even just th- thinking about LLM strategies but also, like, well, what's our organic strategy? What's our paid strategy? Like, I think that's just really helped kinda raise its profile, and Reddit has just been doing a lot over the past few years to actually boost, like, its actual advertising business.

Minda Smiley: And so I think, like, it definitely has a lot, um, a lot of momentum. I will say, like, kinda going back to what I said earlier, why I'm a little cautious is that, um, it is very different from other social networks. Um, you know, and you can't, you know, like, think about, like, Reels, you can use Reels similarly to Shorts, to TikTok.

Minda Smiley: Like, all those short-form video platforms, a lot of those assets you can kinda, like, easily transfer. Reddit does really require- Mm ... like, its own strategy. And so, um, I do think for some brands they just [00:22:00] might say, like, "There's only so much we realistically wanna invest, uh, in this platform." Yeah. So I think that could work against it.

Max Willens: I would say that there's a lot to be optimistic about, um, if you're thinking about Reddit's ad business. Um, all the stuff that, that, uh, Minda pointed out is exactly right. I think that maybe we'll start with the, with the, with the sort of, you know, reasons- Sure ... for pessimism before doing the optimism part.

Max Willens: Um, and I think that the, the best place to start there is there's a really, really big question surrounding how much video they can cram onto Reddit, right? I mean, as we've spent the last few minutes talking about, it's principally a text-focused platform, and Reddit has been on a, you know, years-long, uh, journey to try to find more ways to sort of ch- uh, shoehorn more video into its experience.

Max Willens: And I just- I personally am skeptical that they're going to be able to get much more in. I mean, they're, they're definitely gonna find more ways to, to fit, fit it into the user experience. But the idea that Reddit will turn into something akin to, [00:23:00] you know, Instagram or TikTok or Snapchat, where you're just swiping and swiping and swiping and, and, you know, plowing through dozens of, uh, pieces of video content every time you open it just doesn't seem realistic to me.

Max Willens: Um, now with that said, I- the reasons for optimism are that, you know, I think that they still have a lot of opportunity to kind of grow their, um- Mm-hmm ... you know, logged in user base, which is the s- Mm-hmm ... source of their most valuable users. They also, frankly, you know, to Minda's point, have really only just, they have so much runway left on their ad product, like Reddit Max, which is their, um, you know, automated campaign solution akin to Meta's Advantage+ or, or TikTok's Smart+, only just hit general, uh, availability for advertisers, uh, this quarter.

Max Willens: So I think what we've seen from all the other social networks is that these automated solutions are, you know, valuable for almost every kind of advertiser, but they're exceedingly [00:24:00] valuable for small SMB advertisers, which Reddit is, is, you know, working really, really hard to, to court more of. And so I think that just even in the, you know, short to medium term, having Reddit Max available widely is going to be a nice shot in the arm after, you know, many consecutive quarters of their ad business growing like crazy.

Max Willens: Yeah.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah, the logged in Reddit users, a quarter of internet users in America. It's, it's a lot of people, but so- but there's still a ton of runway for, for growth. Folks who just use Reddit and aren't logged in, um, is even more. It's a really high number. So very positive there. Um, we also, our forecasting team expecting that Reddit's ad revenues are gonna quadruple in 2024 to 2028, going from about a billion to close to four.

Marcus Johnson: Um, so that's very positive. Um, but I'll say this, The Economist notes that Reddit's share price has dropped by about a third this year. Strong quarterly earnings last month failed to cheer shareholders, who fret the company will suffer as users turn to AI chatbots for [00:25:00] information, and last quarter the amount of time users spent on Reddit's app each day was down by 8% year over year compared with gains of 6 and 4% for Instagram and TikTok respectively, says Sensor Tower.

Marcus Johnson: Um, all right. Time for, uh, the most important takeaways of the episode. Maximum transparency is the best policy for continued success on Reddit. True expertise matters. Invite the person who worked on the product to join the thread. Reddit users love getting into the weeds. Um, and then so Max and Minda were the first two.

Marcus Johnson: And then the next one I think, uh, from Marissa, Marissa Jones, uh, a newsletter writer. AI-generated results may increasingly become the place where consumers get initial recommendations. Reddit could remain the place where they pressure test those recommendations before purchasing. That's all we've got time for for today's episode.

Marcus Johnson: Thank you so much to my guests for today. Thank you first to Minda.

Minda Smiley: Thank you.

Marcus Johnson: And to Max.

Max Willens: Always a pleasure, Marcus. Thank you.

Marcus Johnson: Yes, indeed. And to the production crew, Lance and Luigi helping out with this one, and to everyone for listening in to Behind the Numbers, an EMARKETER Podcast, made possible by Verve. Thank you, thank you.[00:26:00]

Marcus Johnson: I hope to see everyone on Monday, where I'll be discussing why travel's biggest brands are invisible in AI answers. Until then, happiest of weekends.