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[00:00:00] Suzy Davidkhanian: Atmosphere TV is the largest streaming TV platform purpose-built for shared social spaces like bars, restaurants, gyms, and airports. Atmosphere TV is the creator of ChiveTV and 30-plus mesmerizing audio-optional channels that entertain over 150 million monthly viewers. Built for business, made [00:00:20] for fun, Atmosphere TV

[00:00:26] Suzy Davidkhanian: Hi, everyone. Today is Wednesday, October 7th. Welcome to EMARKETER's weekly retail show, Reimagining Retail, an EMARKETER podcast made possible by Atmosphere TV. This is the show where we talk about how retail collides with [00:00:40] every part of our lives, and I'm your host, Suzy Davidkhanian. On today's episode, we're talking about what happens when retail media's data machine meets influencer marketing, whose power really comes from feeling human.

[00:00:52] Suzy Davidkhanian: Joining me are EMARKETER analyst Sarah Marzano. Hey, Sarah.

[00:00:56] Sarah Marzano: Hey, Suzy. Thanks for having me.

[00:00:57] Suzy Davidkhanian: Thanks for joining us. And Colin [00:01:00] Colburn, Vice President of Commerce and Retail Media at IAB. Hey, Colin.

[00:01:03] Colin Colburn: Hey, Suzy. Hey, Sarah. Thank you guys for having me.

[00:01:06] Suzy Davidkhanian: We're so excited you're here, but before we even get started, let's do a speed intro in 30 seconds or less.

[00:01:12] Suzy Davidkhanian: Colin, tell us what do you do?

[00:01:15] Colin Colburn: So I lead the Commerce and Retail Media Center of Excellence here at the [00:01:20] IAB. Essentially what we do is we set industry standards, guidelines, and best practices in the retail media industry.

[00:01:27] Suzy Davidkhanian: Cool. The right person to have on with us. We're so excited. Tell us, what's your favorite book at the moment?

[00:01:34] Suzy Davidkhanian: Well, book, podcast, TV show.

[00:01:37] Colin Colburn: I'm gonna go with book. I love to read. Um, I'm a [00:01:40] history nerd, too. Sarah might know this, but since 2018 I've been on this journey of reading at least one biography on each of the US presidents in chronological order. I am- That's cool. I'm on, um, Teddy Roosevelt, and the book that I'm reading right now is excellent I think, I think [00:02:00] it'd be good for anyone who

[00:02:01] Colin Colburn: My wife is not a biography person at all, but I think even she would find this interesting. It's called Mornings on Horseback, and it's by the very well-known David McCullough.

[00:02:10] Sarah Marzano: What a cool project. I love that.

[00:02:12] Colin Colburn: As, Sarah, as you, as you might imagine, kids have slowed me down. Yep. I started in 2018, and we had a, our first kid in 2021, [00:02:20] and I cranked through the first couple years.

[00:02:22] Colin Colburn: And now it's just been, like, I do maybe one or two a year.

[00:02:25] Sarah Marzano: I know. It's, it's strategic. You have to, like ... There's, like, phases. I, I read a lot during bedtime now, which takes forever, so I'm actually getting a lot of reading done.

[00:02:33] Colin Colburn: By then, I'm, I'm too tired.

[00:02:34] Sarah Marzano: I get it. I get it.

[00:02:36] Suzy Davidkhanian: I'm very impressed.

[00:02:37] Colin Colburn: That was a long answer to a very easy question.

[00:02:39] Sarah Marzano: No, but I wanna [00:02:40] copy that. I love the, like, sort of project nature of that, and the way you can kind of track your, your progress through it.

[00:02:45] Colin Colburn: It's, it says a lot about me as a

[00:02:47] Sarah Marzano: person.

[00:02:48] Suzy Davidkhanian: I don't wanna say, 'cause I feel like-

[00:02:49] Sarah Marzano: Well, you're at the right job.

[00:02:51] Suzy Davidkhanian: Sarah, do you have a book or pod or something?

[00:02:54] Sarah Marzano: Oh my gosh, no.

[00:02:55] Sarah Marzano: You didn't tell me to prepare anything. So-

[00:02:57] Suzy Davidkhanian: That's funny. I normally don't ask, but yesterday Marcus [00:03:00] asked, so now I'm

[00:03:00] Sarah Marzano: asking you. I, no, I'm ... So I'm big on novels, and I've been, um ... I just read The Paper Palace, which isn't new. Uh, it's from a couple years ago, I think, but it was, uh ... I thought it was incredible, and finished it really quickly.

[00:03:12] Suzy Davidkhanian: Oh, I'm gonna add that to my list, too. Probably before Roosevelt. Sorry.

[00:03:17] Colin Colburn: Totally okay. No offense taken.

[00:03:18] Suzy Davidkhanian: So back to retail [00:03:20] media. So we know that retail media and influencer marketing are bringing very different strengths to the table. Retail media has this rich shopping data, and sits much closer to the transaction.

[00:03:30] Suzy Davidkhanian: But influencers can introduce us to products we didn't even know we wanted. So bringing the two together sounds like it could be a natural fit. Better data can help brands find [00:03:40] the right creators, reach the right audiences, and even better understand what actually works. But can you have too much of a good thing?

[00:03:48] Suzy Davidkhanian: If we use data to optimize the creator, the audience, the product, and even the message, at what point does that influence start to feel manufactured? So today we're going to talk about how brands and retailers can [00:04:00] bring these two worlds together, where the opportunities are, and how we can use all that data without losing the trust that made influencer marketing work in the first place.

[00:04:09] Suzy Davidkhanian: But before we get started, I wanted to ask each of you, also surprise question, what's the last thing a creator influenced you to buy or at least look into? I will start, since you [00:04:20] guys are thinking about it. There is this- Influencer that started off as, like, dating and, like, what to do during COVID that my cousins, who are not so little anymore, went to school with.

[00:04:31] Suzy Davidkhanian: So I started following her, and I think every Friday she posts a bunch of things with her little link, because obviously that's how she's getting some, some money, [00:04:40] and I always check some of the things that she does, and the last one was sneakers from New Balance in a colorway that I didn't know existed.

[00:04:48] Suzy Davidkhanian: I didn't buy them yet, but they're on my, the top of my list.

[00:04:50] Sarah Marzano: Oh, does it count, though, if you didn't buy them yet?

[00:04:52] Suzy Davidkhanian: Well, it was a very strategic, 'cause how many times are you buying things from influencers? We already know from our own data it's not that high. [00:05:00] So it was l- buying or looking at, that you clicked through.

[00:05:04] Sarah Marzano: I just bought, um, a lip stain. You bought? I bought. I bought. I mean, it's a low consideration item, but it's a lip stain that, like- Hypothetically, you put on and it keeps the color on your lips longer, which is something that I really struggle with. I find that, like, all lipstick and, like, tinted stuff comes off [00:05:20] really quickly.

[00:05:20] Sarah Marzano: But this stuff is funny because you put it on and, like, goes on your lips like black or like this like dark purple and you have to let it set for a minute or two before you scrub it off. So you just kind of look really startling while you're running around your house getting ready while you wait for it to set.

[00:05:35] Suzy Davidkhanian: Oh my God, you definitely needed to watch the video for that to see-

[00:05:38] Sarah Marzano: Yes ...

[00:05:39] Suzy Davidkhanian: that it does [00:05:40] go from black

[00:05:40] Sarah Marzano: to- But I'm, I'm, I'm happy with it, so-

[00:05:42] Suzy Davidkhanian: Colin, what about you?

[00:05:43] Colin Colburn: I bought something that's very big right now which is, um, electrolyte packets from the brand Cure who's actually right a- right around the block from where the IAB is in New York.

[00:05:53] Colin Colburn: Because they are low or no sugar, I forget which one it is, and actually tastes good which I think is always a [00:06:00] challenge with electrolytes. Big Time Adulting, if you know who that is on Instagram, she influenced me to purchase them. I will say though, I have bought more things that I dislike from these situations with influencers and creators than things that I've actually found good.

[00:06:15] Colin Colburn: Now that just might be me and the choices that I make, but I, I do think of that [00:06:20] often.

[00:06:20] Sarah Marzano: Do you think because it's more, like, impulsive that you end up having- I think

[00:06:23] Colin Colburn: so ...

[00:06:23] Sarah Marzano: buyer's remorse, you do less research on these things- Yes ... than you would otherwise? Yeah.

[00:06:27] Suzy Davidkhanian: Also, I think it's such random things. I don't know that it says a lot about you and about what brands trust influencers to sell at the moment, but maybe with retail media data it'll get a little bit more seeped in.

[00:06:39] Suzy Davidkhanian: [00:06:40] Although it sounds like it hasn't been over-engineered in your cases in terms of what you saw and what you purchased. How, did it feel human? Is that why you bought it?

[00:06:48] Colin Colburn: I think so. I mean, in my case, like the one thing I love about this one influencer that I bought off of her, you know, and made sure she got her affiliate portion because I used her code, is she doesn't recommend things very often.

[00:06:59] Colin Colburn: And I think [00:07:00] that's a key in my mind when it comes to creator selection and I think that's why micro-influencers, micro-creators have become so big is because they not only have niche audiences in a good way, but I think a lot of times they've built trust around the fact that they don't feel commercial.

[00:07:16] Sarah Marzano: Yeah, no, it's, it's so true. The one that I bought from is like this busy working [00:07:20] mom kind of thing that I follow and she's just like speaking to like my lifestyle. And so when she talked about a lip stain that, that stays on your lips all, you know, all day even though you're running around, it really- It spoke to me.

[00:07:30] Sarah Marzano: But I'm really bad at honoring the affiliate links and following the cor- correct click- Oh, you've

[00:07:34] Colin Colburn: got to.

[00:07:34] Suzy Davidkhanian: Yeah.

[00:07:35] Sarah Marzano: I know. That's how they make the

[00:07:36] Colin Colburn: money.

[00:07:36] Sarah Marzano: I know. I'm the worst.

[00:07:39] Suzy Davidkhanian: But you guys, in [00:07:40] these examples, it almost feels like it wasn't about optimization. Like, it felt like it was authentic, and it's someone that you're already sort of following, and that's part of your community and ecosystem, and so the trust was inherent.

[00:07:52] Sarah Marzano: That's right.

[00:07:53] Colin Colburn: Yep.

[00:07:53] Suzy Davidkhanian: But at the same time, Sarah, it's obvious that there is room for these two sort of mega machines to [00:08:00] come together. What do you think retail media can bring to social and creator marketing, and is that something that social ... Is there anything that social can do to help retail media on the other side?

[00:08:11] Sarah Marzano: Yeah, so I'm gonna shamelessly plug that I just published some research for EMARKETER with our social and creator economy analyst, Max [00:08:20] Willens. On the topic of the intersection of retail media and social media more broadly, we looked at the creator piece specifically in there as well. But I think this is one of the areas in our industry where the opportunity makes so much sense on paper, right?

[00:08:37] Sarah Marzano: And that's because retail media is really [00:08:40] strong when it comes to someone already demonstrating intent, someone lower in the funnel, someone who's probably on a retailer's owned and operated property who has that high purchase intent. And then on the other end of the spectrum, social and creators are better at getting in front of someone earlier, maybe before they knew they wanted something yet.

[00:08:57] Sarah Marzano: So if you think about the traditional marketing funnel [00:09:00] or the traditional, uh, purchase journey, both of these, uh, marketing channels, uh, bring a complimentary strength. And I think that's why when there are announcements of retail media networks announcing new integrations with social platforms, the headlines are so overwhelmingly positive, right?

[00:09:17] Sarah Marzano: And so what Max and I wanted to dig into [00:09:20] was, like, how is this opportunity actually translating into advertiser spend, right? And I think what we uncovered, and we'll talk about that hopefully more during this conversation, is that the opportunity is real. Like, the fact that these two arenas bring complimentary strengths is real, but I think we have to be careful to assume that just because it makes sense on paper, [00:09:40] that advertiser demand is naturally going to follow, right?

[00:09:44] Sarah Marzano: So retailers really have to prove that bringing their data and their measurement into these social or creator investments adds enough value to, to change the way advertisers are used to buying, um, or investing on social and creators in the first place.

[00:09:58] Colin Colburn: And I will plug that that was a great [00:10:00] piece that you did.

[00:10:00] Colin Colburn: Oh, thank you. And it sparked, it sparked the next piece that we're putting out, which is going deeper on the creator side specifically of, like, what are the specific opportunities for retail media networks to work with creators? And from the IAB perspective, what we thought was kind of uniquely us is kind of identifying what is the bidirectional benefit.

[00:10:19] Colin Colburn: Like, if [00:10:20] these two areas link up, what are the benefits to, to each? Because that's, that's at the core, like, what needs to happen. And there's some experiments and some more scaled activations that some retailers have done, but it has been fairly limited thus far.

[00:10:33] Sarah Marzano: So we are anticipating that out of the 75-ish billion dollars that's spent on retail media in [00:10:40] 2026, um, about 1.3 billion is gonna go to buying social media ads through a retail media network, and that amounts to 2% of retail media ad spending and just about 1% of all of social media ad spending, right?

[00:10:56] Sarah Marzano: And so I think those are some really sobering numbers when you compare them to like, [00:11:00] oh, this opportunity makes a ton of sense on paper. And I think if you sit back and really think about it, it's the RMNs that have the most to gain from this working, right? Because for a lot of retail media networks, we're starting to recognize that I can monetize my website and my app, but that's only gonna reach customers who are already coming to me.

[00:11:18] Sarah Marzano: Right? And if I wanna grow my [00:11:20] revenue stream, I'm gonna have to think about how do I influence the full funnel. But what remains to be seen is, like, making that benefit really tangible to the end consumer if retailer data is informing social media ads, uh, or the selection of, of creators, and how it benefits the advertiser as well.

[00:11:36] Colin Colburn: I think what makes this really complicated and complex is the fact [00:11:40] that brands already work with-

[00:11:41] Sarah Marzano: Yes ...

[00:11:41] Colin Colburn: social platforms and creators. Retailers too already. Their marketing departments, which are typically separate from- Yep ... the media network, not always, but typically, as Sarah has data on, they also work with creators as well.

[00:11:55] Colin Colburn: So that's where this gets a little tricky because it's like on paper, to her [00:12:00] point, it, it feels very obvious, but the actual operational parts of it, there's a lot of toes that can get stepped on here, and that's what I think has made this a little bit tricky so far to f- to figure out. No, that's a

[00:12:10] Sarah Marzano: really good point.

[00:12:11] Suzy Davidkhanian: So let's talk about that, 'cause in theory we're saying one plus one should equal three, but there are some structural issues, quote unquote, at the [00:12:20] retailer brand side. But also it sounds like maybe there are structural sort of infrastructure misses on the social side, and bringing that together is hard.

[00:12:29] Suzy Davidkhanian: But we are seeing some retailers are trying. Who is trying and doing it successfully? What are they doing differently than the folks that are trying but they're not quite there yet?

[00:12:39] Colin Colburn: We know [00:12:40] that Walmart partnered with Omnicom's Creo to do, um, better creator selection, so that was part of Walmart Connect's offering.

[00:12:48] Colin Colburn: Um, we've also seen Best Buy partner with a bunch of different platforms, especially on the CTV side. The one that I think of is they partnered with Dude Perfect for NFL games, basically allowing their suppliers to [00:13:00] advertise on the platform, and then all of the calls to action link back to Best Buy so you have the sort of closed loop measurement piece.

[00:13:08] Colin Colburn: So there's, there are definitely some good use cases that are out there, but again, they are fairly Fairly limited, um, at the moment.

[00:13:16] Sarah Marzano: Yeah, I think right now, um, we're still in a stage where it's about building the [00:13:20] pipes and the connectivity, and retailers are in, like, a test and learn phase. Like, thinking through which of the social platforms that make the most sense to double-click into, and how do we incorporate creators into that, right?

[00:13:32] Sarah Marzano: And so I think for a lot of our amends, it's going to be about how do you not sort of like make this a check-the-box exercise, and how do [00:13:40] you think through, like, where does it make sense for your consumers, right, and your advertisers specifically? So I think about everything that, like, Target and Roundel are doing with Pinterest, right?

[00:13:50] Sarah Marzano: Which, which to me speaks to, like, a lot of their brand identity with curation and, and inspiration and that kind of thing, right? Whereas, like, with a retailer like Best Buy, I would think about sort of that expertise [00:14:00] and everything that you need to build confidence to make a higher consideration purchase.

[00:14:04] Sarah Marzano: But I think we're just, we're quite early, right, in this discovery, uh, journey.

[00:14:08] Colin Colburn: But it's a, it's also a good, it's a good time because we increasingly see the creators, they are not as synonymous with social as they have been.

[00:14:17] Sarah Marzano: Oh, for true. Yeah.

[00:14:18] Colin Colburn: They- they've moved off. Like, [00:14:20] you see creators in other forms of paid media like CTV, like streaming.

[00:14:24] Colin Colburn: And I think it's a good time because if that's happening, then the retailer property is actually a good place, whether it's the retailer site or I'm sure we're gonna talk about the store at some point because that could be a really interesting way to be able to leverage creators if someone's stand- standing 10 feet in front of the product [00:14:40] assortment.

[00:14:40] Colin Colburn: So there's trends on the creator side that are actually kind of allowing this to happen in a way that really could be beneficial to both.

[00:14:46] Sarah Marzano: It's a true point. I'm picturing, like, a Venn diagram in my head, and we're creators. We would have, like, w- historically put them squarely within social platforms. Like, that's starting to not- Be the case, right?

[00:14:56] Sarah Marzano: And so I think that's like, it's such a salient point to say, like, now is the right [00:15:00] time as creators bleed out into other ecosystems. There's so much more opportunity.

[00:15:03] Suzy Davidkhanian: And also, it seems to me like the output is a little bit different, too. Like, I'm thinking about the Albertsons trial, where it was, like, the taco sort of

[00:15:11] Suzy Davidkhanian: It feels like, you know, there are different sort of iterations of what creator output could look like, and some of that is being [00:15:20] informed by, it sounds like the Albertsons, the mechanics around that were really about the retail media purchases and what that could look like in the day of.

[00:15:27] Sarah Marzano: I think you're, like, you're edging into a topic that I think is so fascinating that we could probably spend a whole podcast on, but I think when I sort of mull over the opportunity for retail media to become more of a full funnel advertising channel, I think one of the [00:15:40] key unlocks is going to be RMNs going further than positioning themselves as a middleman between the way advertisers already buy upper and mid-funnel advertising channels, and saying, like, "Because we have transaction data, we're absolutely the way your buy should flow, and it's worth the friction and the additional cost" I think RMNs are gonna have to go further than that and think [00:16:00] through, like, is there an opportunity to co-build new content sort of alongside my advertisers that add something new to the ecosystem?

[00:16:08] Sarah Marzano: And I think the Albertsons and P&G example with Rico's Tacos is a great example of, of that type of innovation. So for our listeners, the, the TLDR is that, um, in partnership with P&G, Albertsons developed a [00:16:20] little miniseries of episodic content, um, that had a narrative through line, and they featured some of that content in short clips in their stores.

[00:16:28] Sarah Marzano: And, uh, shoppers could, could see it there, but they could also see it, I believe, on Albertsons' various social channels and, and YouTube as well. And so it was a really cool example of saying, like, how do we create something [00:16:40] new that we're uniquely positioned to offer to our advertisers, leveraging the surfaces that we can bring to the market that only we can sort of bring, right?

[00:16:48] Sarah Marzano: 'Cause I think that's one of the things that's really sort of standing in the way of retail media and social taking off is, to Colin's point earlier, advertisers already have preferred ways of buying these mediums, and they [00:17:00] have relationships. They have specific KPIs they already like to use. So while I think it's a worthwhile endeavor to think through what retail data can add to this, it also makes a lot of sense to think through, like, what can we add that's actually net new to the marketing ecosystem?

[00:17:12] Colin Colburn: The vast majority of the retail media ad formats and creative that have been built have been built around promotion and price. And [00:17:20] this is a totally new way of thinking about how do we build creative that actually Influences or drives, you know, discovery and interest with our shoppers

[00:17:29] Sarah Marzano: Yeah, thinking about

[00:17:29] Colin Colburn: the

[00:17:29] Sarah Marzano: brand-building side of it, which is a new sort of

[00:17:32] Colin Colburn: muscle-

[00:17:32] Sarah Marzano: Muscle

[00:17:32] Sarah Marzano: for retailers, yeah.

[00:17:33] Suzy Davidkhanian: So I guess that's the part that I wanted to talk a little bit more about, and then we can do another, a follow-up part two. But [00:17:40] is there a world where right now retail media, as we've said, the data is really about what do you put in front of the customer, at what point in their journey, whether it's on-site or off-site.

[00:17:49] Suzy Davidkhanian: But is there a world where you can take that data, like the Albertsons example, and help really make creatives, whether it's video or, like, advertising copy [00:18:00] and/or the images that are one-to-one-ish and that really help move the needle on the creator side, or will that feel too manufactured?

[00:18:09] Colin Colburn: It will feel too manufactured, and this is where, like, the, the line has to be drawn in terms of, like, when and where the data, the retailer data is used.

[00:18:17] Colin Colburn: To me, the intelligence, if you think about it [00:18:20] overall, that, that retailers have should really be used to help improve selection of creators based on the audience and shopper fit with that creator and their audience fit, and the product and category relevance. Like, at, at the most basic level, those are the things I think where the data can really help.

[00:18:37] Colin Colburn: It's, it's all in, like, the planning [00:18:40] portions of who and where should we use the creator. Where the line comes into play is I don't think that that data should then influence what the creator builds.

[00:18:50] Sarah Marzano: Right.

[00:18:51] Colin Colburn: Because that's, back to your point, your very, very initial point, Suzy, like, that is where I think things can get really ugly in the sense of being inauthentic.

[00:18:59] Colin Colburn: And [00:19:00] this has always been, I think, a challenge with influencers, but it's a different way of thinking about it in a retail media context, is that retailers are used to having a lot of control over the media that is placed, right? Because it's, it's largely owned on their property. They have a lot of say in terms of what suppliers can and cannot advertise around in the creative.

[00:19:17] Colin Colburn: With a creator, the beauty of it [00:19:20] is taking that risk of they know the audience that they're, that they market to better than the brand or the retailer. And you kinda have to let them use that gut instinct in a way that might make you feel a little bit uncomfortable.

[00:19:32] Sarah Marzano: Right. It's like the art and the science, right?

[00:19:34] Sarah Marzano: Yeah. Retailer data can be used to inject more efficiency into this channel, [00:19:40] but not at the risk of losing the magic, right?

[00:19:42] Suzy Davidkhanian: It's like that imperfection is better than the optimized, and at some point down the line- Absolutely. Yeah Yeah. So we're running out of time, but I wanna hit on two more things, so maybe, like, rapid fire.

[00:19:53] Suzy Davidkhanian: Is this melting of the two channels going to help with measurement?

[00:19:58] Sarah Marzano: I think in the long run it [00:20:00] has the potential to. I think what RMs need to realize is that if they want to get more than access to their buyers, sort of like test and learn portions of their retail media budgets, if they actually want to tap into new sources of advertiser budgets, then they need to learn how to communicate with different stakeholders, [00:20:20] right?

[00:20:20] Sarah Marzano: Because there are different teams within brands who are making decisions when it comes to social media and creators, and they have different metrics and KPIs that they are looking to leverage in order to judge their success, right? So the same way retailers had to learn how to speak the language of media, retail media teams are [00:20:40] gonna have to learn how to speak the language of social and brand-building teams, and figure out how to flex the metrics that they deliver on to demonstrate success.

[00:20:50] Suzy Davidkhanian: Silos are bad.

[00:20:51] Sarah Marzano: They're a reality, right? They exist, and we're not gonna do away with them overnight. And so as much as we can, like, wring our hands and say we wish silos [00:21:00] didn't exist within organizations, like, that's a much longer term evolution in terms of how that's going to change, and we need to learn how to operate within the team structures that exist as they do today.

[00:21:09] Colin Colburn: I mentioned the work that we did in really focusing on bidirectional benefit. Measurement was one of those pieces we looked at. And from a creator side of things, the [00:21:20] measurement piece is very obvious for them because by working with a retail media network, you're much better able to be able to show the closed loop attribution of this creative or this content drove these purchases.

[00:21:32] Colin Colburn: On the retailer side, on the retail media side of things, I think the measurement, um, benefit is good. It's not going to be, I think, [00:21:40] what the industry or advertisers might want it to be because basically what it is is it's the ability to turn the intelligence that they have on their shopper Into an ongoing flywheel when it comes to influence and content because then you, if you, if you start working with, especially if you build out these longer term partnerships with creators, you're gonna have [00:22:00] these learnings as they create more content in different places, in different formats, that's gonna inform, hopefully, all of your creative efforts that you have within, within the network that should make all of your content better.

[00:22:13] Colin Colburn: Why is the industry maybe not like that? Well, it's not as sexy, right? It's not showing s- sales attribution, right? Um, but it is, it is [00:22:20] super important.

[00:22:20] Suzy Davidkhanian: Yeah, it's capital M marketing and branding. You guys, there's so much more to discuss, but I do wanna leave everybody with one guardrail. I think it's clear that there's a world where these two channels are coming together in many different ways a- and different retailers are at different places in that journey.

[00:22:39] Suzy Davidkhanian: And, you know, [00:22:40] KPIs and compensation, all of that sort of has to get figured out. But it's like, what's one sort of immediate guardrail that a retailer who's trying to think about this, you would give them in terms of melting the data worlds together so that you do have optimization, if possible, with trust and, you know, authenticity?[00:23:00]

[00:23:00] Colin Colburn: Don't let the prospect of great data convince you that you know the audience better than the creator does.

[00:23:07] Sarah Marzano: Oh, I love that. That's hard to follow. I think it's, like, just really making sure that you have your differentiation buttoned up as part of your pitch and how you're going to market with this, which is kind of a different way of saying exactly what Colin just said.

[00:23:19] Sarah Marzano: [00:23:20] But-

[00:23:20] Colin Colburn: It's a good one because, you know, I kind of feel this way, Sarah, but, like, I sort of think we overestimate or maybe exaggerate the power of ... And I hate saying this 'cause it, it, it, it's, it's gonna make it seem like I'm anti-retail media, which I am not at all. But I think we over-exaggerate the power of retailer data.

[00:23:37] Colin Colburn: It is great data. Let's not, you know, say that it's [00:23:40] not. But it doesn't tell us the same things that creators know about their audience, and that's why I said what I said.

[00:23:46] Suzy Davidkhanian: Thank you both. I think we could keep going, but we're gonna have to- We

[00:23:49] Colin Colburn: could ...

[00:23:50] Suzy Davidkhanian: we sure could, but we're gonna have to leave it here for today.

[00:23:53] Suzy Davidkhanian: Thank you so much, Sarah.

[00:23:55] Sarah Marzano: Yeah, thank you for having me. This was fun.

[00:23:57] Suzy Davidkhanian: And Colin, thank you so much for joining us.

[00:23:58] Colin Colburn: Thanks, Suzy. [00:24:00] Absolutely, anytime.

[00:24:00] Suzy Davidkhanian: And thank you to our listeners and to our team that edits the podcast. Please leave a rating or review, and remember to subscribe. I'll see you for more Reimagining Retail next Wednesday.

[00:24:10] Suzy Davidkhanian: And on Friday, join Marcus for another episode of Behind the Numbers, an EMARKETER podcast made possible by Atmosphere TV.