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Suzy Davidkhanian (00:00):

Consumers skip ads, but they don't skip rewards. Fetch drives performance with over 12.5 million monthly active users and over 11.5 million receipts scanned daily, capturing 88% of household spend. Your brand becomes the reward, earning real engagement, verified purchases, and loyalty. Fetch, America's rewards app, where brands are the center of joy.

(00:27):

Hello, listeners. Today is Wednesday, October 22nd. Welcome to Reimagining Retail, an EMARKETER podcast made possible by Fetch. This is the weekly show where we talk about how retail collides with every part of our lives. I'm your guest host, Suzy Davidkhanian, and on today's episode, we're talking about what it takes to build brands that can actually stand out in a world that never turns off. But before we do, let's meet today's guests. Joining me for today's episode we have Sonal Gandhi, chief content officer at The Lead joining us from New York City. Hi, Sonal.

Sonal Gandhi (01:03):

Hi, Suzy. Thank you for having me.

Suzy Davidkhanian (01:05):

Thanks so much for joining us. And we also have Patrick Buchanan, SVP of marketing at Lulus, and one of this year's Direct 60 honorees joining us from LA. Hey, Patrick.

Patrick Buchanan (01:15):

Hello there. So excited to be here today.

Suzy Davidkhanian (01:18):

Well, we are too. So excited to have you. And, of course, back on the show is podcast regular, principal analyst, Sky Canaves joining us from Texas. Hey, Sky.

Sky Canaves (01:27):

Hey, Suzy. And nice to be here with you all.

Suzy Davidkhanian (01:30):

I'm so excited about this episode because we know that the pace of marketing is faster than ever. The pressure to be data-driven has never been higher, and yet it's really clear that brands that are winning are the ones that still find ways to stay human, to connect emotionally, not just algorithmically in an authentic way where there are consumers. So it's really a balancing act that every marketer is navigating. How do you move fast, use data smartly, but still build brand love with your consumers? And that's exactly what the Direct 60 list from The Lead celebrates, the executives redefining what go-to-market even means today.

(02:14):

So before we get started though, I wanted to ask you, Sonal, for those who are not quite as familiar with the D60, can you tell us more about it, and what does it reveal about how the best marketers are thinking differently right now?

Sonal Gandhi (02:26):

Yeah, so the Direct 60 list is something that we started producing in 2020-2021 timeframe when most brands, most iconic brands were really shifting the way they go to market because of the pandemic, because of the fact that direct-to-consumer became a big part of their business and they needed to digitize really fast. So we started with the list of executives at these iconic legacy brands that were really digitizing their business and changing their approach to consumer. That's why the name Direct.

(03:01):

This is now the fifth year, and we're basically featuring executives that are on the frontend of the consumer value chain and marketing in e-commerce, in digital roles, and technology roles that are really reshaping how these brands approach consumers. So we call them executives mastering the business of brands.

Suzy Davidkhanian (03:24):

And are you seeing any patterns that are emerging?

Sonal Gandhi (03:27):

In order to do the list, I speak to dozens of executives and interview them for them. And every year, there are new themes that emerge based on the challenges that they're facing currently and what's happening economically as well as with technology. And we see a ton of patterns emerging. Over the course of the last few years, we've seen there's a lot of emphasis on AI, both for doing data-driven marketing, but also this current shift towards GenAI, which is really top of mind for everybody right now in terms of how consumers are discovering products. We're seeing that the need to create this emotional connection with the younger demographic is really top of mind as well because they discover products differently, they have different loyalties towards brand, and their behavior shifts very fast.

(04:24):

And brands are really navigating a trend-driven world and really trying to stay true to who they are. So I think those are the main themes that we've seen emerge recently, is how fast everything's changing and how they have to keep adapting to a new business environment almost on an annual basis.

Suzy Davidkhanian (04:44):

And we're seeing that a lot too, Sky, in terms of there's so much pressure and tension that's coming from the outside world, from consumers themselves, never mind the technology. And so it's leading to this always-on marketing mindset from the consumer side, and that's changing their expectations. Sky, what are some of the things you're seeing in the larger landscape?

Sky Canaves (05:03):

So that's because we all basically have a shopping mall in our pockets that's open 24/7, and it's not just a shopping center, it's also an entertainment center. So this really creates new opportunities to reach consumers pretty much anytime, anywhere, and whether they have specific shopping intent or not across those platforms like social, video, streaming, and now with the AI platforms as well.

(05:29):

And I think at the same time, consumers have grown more accustomed to being marketed to on these platforms. So I remember now it's almost exactly two years ago when TikTok Shop launched, and I remember there was a flood of shopping content coming up in user feeds and all of these complaints that it was too much and concerns that TikTok users were going to leave or be turned off from using the platform. And to be sure, even after those complaints, I don't think there were any significant impacts to time spent or usage. In fact, kind of the opposite.

(06:03):

But I think at the same time, that's also brought greater demands or expectations around personalization, as Sonal mentioned. In part that's due to the algorithms. So there's less tolerance for the irrelevant marketing. I get mad at YouTube, it keeps showing me the same ads that have nothing to do with me or my interests, but I feel a little bit of affinity on Instagram where I can see ads for cute snacks that I might want to purchase. So I think when brands can go a step further and even engage more with the content, whether they're owner for creators, there's even more acceptance of that.

Suzy Davidkhanian (06:39):

So consumers are expecting more, right? So Patrick, what does that mean on the brand side? How are you guys even responding or keeping pace when, like Sonal said, there's always some new technology, there's always even now a new channel, everything is shoppable. I saw there was Oreo was doing something on the sidewalk. I don't know if you guys saw that, trying to make a sidewalk shoppable. I mean, there's just always something going on. So how are you guys thinking about that?

Patrick Buchanan (07:03):

When I think about how we approach is just really trying to keep it interesting. And I've been in the marketing game for nearly 20 years, so I've seen things change so much. And so I think my everyday state of mind is understanding that change is inevitable and it's just happening every day. And so I just try to find ways to bake it into my strategy and to make sure the team knows that we're not doing same-same. Same-same is just not going to be able to keep us surviving in the landscape. And so I think always trying to listen to our customers.

(07:38):

I do all the things from read social media comments, exit surveys, focus groups as often as I can to just hear what our customers are interested in and what they want to see from us. And then a bit of it is spending time with the team and the creative team and finding out what stories can we tell, to Sky's point, to keep people not only wanting to buy the product and invested in the brand, but also to keep them entertained.

(08:03):

And I think that trying to find ways to be able to do both, it's a puzzle that I'm constantly solving, and you always have to look at it and evaluate and shift and change course. And so I think that from a brand perspective, I think it can be a lot of fun. And I've learned to find enjoyment in trying to ride the wave and to figure out where it's going to take us next. And I guess that's where the job comes in is that most people want this to be easy. And ultimately, it's not always going to be easy, and it's not always going to be as plain as simple. And you have to always evolve and change and find new ways to be able to reach the customer.

(08:42):

And that's the way I approach my job and my life every day is understanding that we're in turbulent waters. And in order to get through, you have to, I guess, put on your life jacket and bring your team with you so you can find the right way to be able to get back to shore. So yeah, I think that's how we're handling.

Suzy Davidkhanian (09:03):

Yeah, no, I mean, it's so interesting because you have access to so much data too. And so how do you lean into data but still trust your instinct and still keep it creative?

Patrick Buchanan (09:14):

I think that data and instinct, I consider them partners not opposite. And I think that in a lot of organizations, you see these two teams fighting for a budget, fighting for attention. And what I have found more and more is that when you find a way to let the instinct create the idea, but the data to be the guiding force to help you to fine-tune and to find new ways to be able to make the idea better.

(09:42):

I love criticism, and I love finding ways to be able to make something better. And my goal as a person and at work is to just be a little bit better every day. And data are insights that allow us to create better campaigns. And I think that when you are not afraid to look at the data and see what it's telling you, and to sometimes take an ugly look and say, "It didn't work, guys, it didn't work. That's okay. The data said it didn't work or she's not interested. We loved it, she didn't." And sometimes that's okay as well. And maybe depending on what the KPI is, maybe that's fine sometimes as well.

(10:17):

So I think that data is just such a big part of my life and the way I'm looking at campaigns in both trying to figure out how to use our instinct and do something new and interesting and exciting, but at the same time be able to evaluate it with fresh, clear eyes and to be able to iterate off of things that we see working.

Suzy Davidkhanian (10:39):

You hit a point that we talk a lot about at the office and with clients around we do experiments, we try, you get results, they might not be what you want. It's really hard sometimes though to see beyond the noise, to know what's really real and a success versus not. How do you guys think about...? And Sonal, I know we talk a lot about this during The Lead, and I'm sure as you were talking to the D60 list folks, the honorees, how are you guys think, how is everybody, how should anybody, I should say, be thinking about the KPIs to help distinguish between trial-error-tweak versus try-abandon versus like, "Oh, we didn't have the right KPI at all, even in mind"?

Sonal Gandhi (11:25):

I mean, in my conversations what KPIs are shifting away from sort of the regular, these are our revenue KPIs to are we engaging our target? How much are we engaging our target? And then focusing the entire organization on that KPI, right? So it isn't just the marketing's job, but it's also the e-commerce and the supporting function's job to focus on that single KPI.

(11:50):

So one of the brands that has done really well with Gen Z in the last couple of years, they've really changed the way they think about the metrics and saying, "If we are going after Gen Z, let's come up with some ways that we measure how well we're doing with that generation, and then have everybody in the organization work to towards that." And there's organizations that make sure that everybody's aligned. So those are some of the things that we're seeing is a shift towards what do we really want to achieve to get to the business objective, and how do we get everybody around to be responsible for getting us there.

Suzy Davidkhanian (12:27):

And Patrick, I don't know if you have anything that you guys, like specific KPIs that you guys are thinking about that you can share with us maybe?

Patrick Buchanan (12:35):

I think that for every campaign, we have sometimes different KPIs. And as a brand marketer, a lot of what I am creating is stories that help express who we are and what we are meant to do and mean to the customer. Our goal is to make women feel beautiful and special for all their life's moments. And not every time when you communicate that does that lead to a sale. Sometimes it plants a seed that then when you talk to your friend, they say they've also experienced a brand, and then you go into a store like Nordstrom, and then you see the dress on the rack.

(13:10):

And so really, I'm just trying to sometimes be able to tell a story that lands in a way where someone can remember us and that we can enter their world. And so I think it really just depends on what the KPI is. And as a brand marketer, I have to fight every day to make sure that people understand the difference between performance and brand and what the different KPIs are.

(13:32):

So I think that the way I see success is making sure those KPIs are really clear up front and that as a leadership team, we talk about them and to make sure that we're holding our teams accountable for work that we're all agreed upon and aligned upon. And I think that's probably where a lot of people get into trouble is that if there's no alignment from the leaders, then how can your team bring you back the result that you want? And that's why I think I just try to make sure that I'm really clear and really open to say, "Okay, well, our KPI is this, and it's not really executing against that. How do we move it and change it to ensure that it's not just a complete miss?

(14:09):

And so I think that is what I use as my guiding force is just always understanding what the goal is and making sure that the outcome lands around where the goal was meant to be and not let the noise and let everyone... Because I think that sometimes when the results come back in, people start to examine the campaigns based on every other KPI that they have set in their head, and you have a really clear picture when you can say, "Well, hold on, let's talk about this. What we said we were trying to do is this, this is what it did. If we want to look into that KPI, that just is going to have to be the next campaign because that's not what this campaign was about." And I think that really helps to make sure, again, that we're all on the same page, all speaking the same language, and all driving towards the same goals.

Suzy Davidkhanian (14:55):

Yeah, boundaries.

Sonal Gandhi (14:56):

I want to add to what Patrick said too. What I've seen is that there's now a little bit of a shift towards the old school brand measurements as well. We were so obsessed with the last click metrics for a long time, but I've noticed a lot of people talk about brand affinity and brand recognition. And that's where I see people going back to some of the older ways we measured brand success.

Patrick Buchanan (15:22):

Which is so exciting, which is so exciting because I think that when you look at the equity in your brand and what people are saying about you as a brand, there are so many options, but the reason you want them to choose you is because they like what you do, they love your vibe, they love what you stand for, and I think that that's the way you develop a brand that has the ability to stand the test of time.

Suzy Davidkhanian (15:44):

So we're going back to old school metrics, which is great news in some ways, but there probably are a lot of tactics that are played out. Are you guys seeing things that are... from a tactical perspective, things that are working, things that we've been doing for too long and it's not working anymore? What's grabbing people's attention?

Patrick Buchanan (16:01):

What I'm seeing is I think that in this world of filters and celebrities and influencers, what I'm seeing is that people are wanting something that feels real. And a lot of people are turning to social for both aspiration and guidance, and they want to find people who fit the same or similar mold that they fit in. And so when they hear stories that feel like their own or they see people who look like they're in a similar life stage or maybe on the same path that they're on, I think you see people relating to that.

(16:32):

And so I think that it doesn't mean that glossy imagery is not necessary because I'm sure there's a channel that needs that as well. But I think that when we're looking at our channel strategy, what I feel like I'm seeing a lot of is that you really have to find ways to be able to tell authentic stories, find ways to change your influencer strategy so you're talking to real people with real stories and real lives and maybe jobs that are not just to influence. So I think it's finding ways to be able to just be really authentic and real and to make sure that the content that we're creating is really resonating in a real way. I think people are looking for something they can touch and feel and that feels a little bit more real realistic.

Sky Canaves (17:18):

We see that influencer marketing is still growing much faster than overall digital advertising and even social advertising in the US during our forecast period. But there's a paradox in there because there is some influencer fatigue taking place and less trust in that overtly sponsored content, but at the same time, there's real demand for unbiased testimonials, expert reviews, user-generated content. And I think that that trusted referral is becoming more and more important to help cut through the noise of just paid advertising. And so I think the shift in metrics is starting to reflect that as well as you're talking about.

(17:59):

And we are seeing that more of the marketing spending is moving towards influencers or creators with the smaller followings. We forecast that more than half of it will go to influencers with less than 20,000 followers, which we consider to be the smaller or micro-tiers of influencers in 2026. And I think that gets back to the basics of building the brand with smaller personas with real content and community because they go hand in hand to create this positive feedback loop and develop that brand affinity, that brand equity that Sonal and Patrick were talking about.

Patrick Buchanan (18:36):

Yeah, I agree so much. One of my favorite pieces of content that we launch every week is a series we have called You and Lulus, and it's just customers wearing our brand in all of their moments, whether it's a date night or they're getting ready for prom or graduation or their wedding. And you get to see real people. It's like, okay, these are how real women wear our dresses and how they show up in their real life. And I think that tells a better story and really shows how practical the items are versus someone who's only wearing the brand because they're being paid and only saying nice things because they have a brief that told them exactly what to say. And so I think it's, while I'm sure we've all booked that person because you wanted the visibility, I think as a marketer and as a person, I feel better when I'm working with people who really have a love and an interest in what we do.

Sky Canaves (19:34):

And it's hard for brands to let go of that directing the outcome with the brief and engaging in more of the dialogue or supporting creator or even regular user content. But it has to go beyond just social listening, which is very important, into social dialogue, like responding to consumers, reading the comments, replying to DMs if it's possible. But that's what really fosters a sense of community and the longer-term loyalty to a brand.

Patrick Buchanan (20:03):

I agree.

Suzy Davidkhanian (20:04):

And drives engagement. And I know it's an overused buzzword being authentic, but the more authentic you are as a brand and the people that you bring into your marketing campaigns, I think you also help to drive engagement. This went by so fast, and I have so many more questions to ask you. So I think what I'm going to do is end on one last question, which hopefully will be rapid fire-ish in five sentences or less. We'll take turns, we'll start with Sky. I don't know if that was random. We could start with whoever. We'll start with Sky. I just wanted to ask you all, if you could give brands one piece of advice for them to thrive in an always-on world that's a little bit different or nuanced to what we've already just been talking about, what would that be?

Sky Canaves (20:53):

Well, I think the next part, the big emerging trend that some savvy brands are always looking to, and Sonal has flagged at the top of the conversation is that generative AI part. We've already started looking at how brands show up in generative AI search optimization and how brands will show up in chatbot conversations. And now with ChatGPT's new instant checkout feature, it's about how brands are getting their products ready to show up in that carousel for easy shopping, easy purchase within the application itself, within that environment.

Suzy Davidkhanian (21:27):

Sonal?

Sonal Gandhi (21:28):

What I've noticed is a trend towards brands hiring their customers or their influencers within their internal teams. So these customers, they know the brand, and they know other customers, they understand that customer, and they're also the influencers; they know how to influence people. So I think hiring people with not traditional marketing backgrounds, but people who know your brand or know how to do influencer marketing well is a really good piece of advice I would give to a lot of brands.

Suzy Davidkhanian (22:01):

That's awesome. And Patrick?

Patrick Buchanan (22:03):

We actually did talk about this a little bit, but I think it might be good to just double tap on this idea of authenticity. I think in a always-on world, relevance matters more than volume. People come to you for a reason, and I would say just to deliver on that reason, and don't be panicked if they have other interests or other brands in their orbit. I think that when we're looking to dominate their attention versus earn their loyalty, and I'm just more into the idea of instead of trying to overload your customer with countless emails and so many social posts, it's how do you tell a story that feels like you're treating the relationship with some care?

(22:47):

And I just think that, I know it's hard to get customer's attention, and we're all fighting for the same wallet, but it's really trying to find a way in a classy, less just annoying way to talk to your customer. And so I just think that the world is always on, and I think that as we have more touch points and more brands and more... it's like more is not always more. So I would just try to find a way to be able to make sure that what you're doing is feeling authentic and is at the pace that your customer actually wants to hear from you, and not because you're just trying to dominate their entire lives. Let them have other interests.

Sonal Gandhi (23:30):

I want to add to that because I feel like all brands now are sneaker brand because sneaker brands had to be like, it's a wave of Sambas, and then the waves of [inaudible 00:23:39], and the New Balance, every brand has to think that: they'll be on top, and tomorrow, it'll be somebody else. And so they have to think ahead the next cycle, what's the next cycle that they're going to ride? And I think that's how we all need to think about things.

Patrick Buchanan (23:53):

Yeah, I love that.

Suzy Davidkhanian (23:55):

Me too. What a great place to end. That's all the time we have for today. Thank you, Sonal, Patrick, and Sky.

Patrick Buchanan (24:01):

Yay. Thank you so much for having us.

Sonal Gandhi (24:03):

Thank you. Yay.

Patrick Buchanan (24:03):

This was so much fun.

Sonal Gandhi (24:04):

That was fun.

Sky Canaves (24:05):

Thank you, Suzy.

Suzy Davidkhanian (24:06):

Thank you, guys. And thank you, listeners. And to our team that edits the podcast, please leave a rating or review and remember to subscribe. I'll see you for more Reimagining Retail next Wednesday. And on Friday, join Marcus for another episode Behind the Numbers, an EMARKETER podcast made possible by Fetch.