Made possible by

Rokt is the global leader in ecommerce, unlocking real-time relevance in the Transaction Moment. Rokt's AI Brain and Ecommerce Network help the world’s leading companies deliver more relevant customer experiences and unlock incremental value from every transaction. Learn more at rokt.com

Marcus Johnson: [00:00:00] When a consumer reaches checkout, they're no longer browsing, they're buying. It's a moment of peak intent, attention, and engagement. That's where Rokt comes in. Rokt helps brands reach customers at the moment that matters most, delivering relevant offers and content that feel like a natural part of the transaction experience, not an interruption.

Marcus Johnson: Learn more at rokt.com.

Marcus Johnson: Hey, gang. It's Friday, June 5th. Hello to Suzy, Gadjo, and listeners. Welcome to Behind the Numbers: an EMARKETER Podcast. I'm Marcus. And joining me for today's conversation, we have three folks all in our New York studio. Demographics analyst, Paola Flores-Marquez. Hello.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Hello, everyone.

Marcus Johnson: Welcome to the show.

Marcus Johnson: We're also joined by VP of content and host of our Reimagining Retail podcast, Suzy Davidkhanian.

Suzy Davidkhanian: Hi. Sorry, guys. My, my things are about to fall off. I've made read already. I'm sorry. It's, like, a lot going on over here in the new studio.

Marcus Johnson: I knew inviting you was a bad idea. We're [00:01:00] also joined by senior AI and technology analyst, Gadjo Sevilla.

Gadjo Sevilla: Hey, great to be with everybody live.

Suzy Davidkhanian: Yay.

Marcus Johnson: It's a much more normal greeting. Suzy, takeaways. Sorry about that. Today's fact

Marcus Johnson: What will be the world's next tallest building? Uh, so the tallest building in the world is?

Suzy Davidkhanian: The CN Tower?

Marcus Johnson: The

Suzy Davidkhanian: Burj.

Paola Flores-Marquez: It's, it's, we're in the UAE, right? Like, the

Suzy Davidkhanian: Burj,

Marcus Johnson: right? 100 years ago. Yes, Gadjo, it's the Burj Khalifa-

Suzy Davidkhanian: Guys- ...

Marcus Johnson: in, in Dubai ...

Suzy Davidkhanian: how could I

Marcus Johnson: not talk

Suzy Davidkhanian: about Canada? I knew it was, obviously I knew it was not the CN Tower. The C- of course you do. Um- There are buildings in Manhattan probably taller ...

Marcus Johnson: Uh, the Burj Khalifa in Da- in Dubai, uh, built in 2010, stands about 2,700 feet tall.

Marcus Johnson: Um, it translates to Khalifa Tower in English. So it consis- consists of two Arabic words, Burj meaning tower or standing structure, and Khalifa honoring Sheik Khalifa bin Zayed al N- uh, Nahyan, [00:02:00] the former president of the UAE and ruler of Abu Dhabi. Um, the Burj Khalifa is 20% taller than the second place Merdeka 118 building in Kuala Lumpur, or Kuala Lumpur, uh, that was built in 2023.

Marcus Johnson: Um, for those New York folks, for context, um, New York's one World Trade building is America's tallest structure, but 50% smaller than the Burj. And guys, that was completed in 2014. Can you believe that building was finished 12 years ago?

Suzy Davidkhanian: No. No. Like, as in- It's, it's, uh ... because it's so much smaller, or because- I

Marcus Johnson: feel like it just- Yeah

Marcus Johnson: I feel like it happened, it's only been there a couple of years. Yeah, no.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Time is

Marcus Johnson: passing- Is it 12? ...

Paola Flores-Marquez: too quickly for my taste. I

Marcus Johnson: don't wanna- 12 buildings ... I don't wanna

Suzy Davidkhanian: focus on that. Wait, did it finish in 1214, 2014- Yeah ... or it's, it-

Marcus Johnson: Opened ...

Suzy Davidkhanian: opened. It opened. Oh.

Gadjo Sevilla: Wow.

Marcus Johnson: In 2014. Yeah, shocking. Well,

Suzy Davidkhanian: that is shocking.

Marcus Johnson: Um, anyway, to my question. Uh, tallest building, uh, soon to [00:03:00] be. Gabriel Cohen of Visual Capitalist explained the Jeddah Tower in Saudi Arabia when completed will be the new tallest building in the world, 500 feet taller than the Burj, uh, and the world's first building to surpass one kilometer- Whoa ... in height.

Marcus Johnson: Whoa! Uh, con- construction started, um, in, uh, 2013. It's planning to open, uh, uh, as early as 2028. So construction started when Obama was starting his second term.

Suzy Davidkhanian: Wow. Yeah. That's, takes forever.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Can you imagine how dwarfed you must feel standing next to that? Just like-

Marcus Johnson: Yes, one- ... I'm but a

Paola Flores-Marquez: speck.

Suzy Davidkhanian: The Burj is one- Well, it's probably also really wide

Suzy Davidkhanian: earthquake

Marcus Johnson: scare though.

Suzy Davidkhanian: Oh, really? Oh, yeah, I haven't...

Marcus Johnson: Yeah, that's-

Suzy Davidkhanian: It's probably really, really wide. Yeah. It's probably, like, multiple blocks wide. I

Marcus Johnson: don't know. Multiple blocks wide? I don't think it's that wide.

Suzy Davidkhanian: I don't know how they can support the weight of such a tall structure. They

Marcus Johnson: do look like they're gonna f- [00:04:00] yeah.

Marcus Johnson: They just look like even the Burj- If it's that wide ... looks like it's gonna fall over at some point. Yeah. Um, on that cheery note, today's real topic

Marcus Johnson: How brands are investing in real world experiences

Suzy Davidkhanian: Don't stand in front of a tall building.

Marcus Johnson: That's the takeaway? Gadjo, you recently wrote, uh, that Gen Alpha and Gen Z are trading feeds for real life, and brands are taking note. Um, and in there you write about, um, this concept of touching grass, going out and touching grass, what younger people say for, uh, leaving their homes.

Marcus Johnson: Um, so Gadjo, I'll start with you. What data point to you, or data points if you've got a couple, best captures this shift toward, uh, towards younger people going out and touching grass?

Gadjo Sevilla: Yeah, I think the single best stat, uh, that, you know, phone-free events jumped 500, uh, 67% globally between 2024 and, uh, [00:05:00] 2025.

Gadjo Sevilla: So in, in one year it's just an exponential amount of, of sort of engagement and desire to, to sort of be out there and be, you know, connecting, uh, w- with peers and experiences.

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm. So- Is that people going out and saying, "I want to have a phone-free experience," or people showing up to events and their phone being confiscated for the experience?

Marcus Johnson: Either way, you get the same experience. You

Gadjo Sevilla: do get the same experience- ... if it's by choice or-

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. And maybe that trickles into pe- you know, maybe that eventually becomes, "Oh, I liked this." Yeah. "I'll do this more." Similar to I had phone bans, um, classroom phone bans, um, uh, forcing maybe a generational shift.

Marcus Johnson: So over 30 US states now ban phones during classroom instruction. Right. Um, others have classroom limits. So I wonder if that, even though kids don't have a choice, eventually it leads them to say, "This is quite nice. I'll do this more."

Suzy Davidkhanian: Or they're on it even more when they have [00:06:00] their phone because they didn't have it.

Suzy Davidkhanian: There's also that.

Marcus Johnson: Thanks, Suzy.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Just throwing that out there. I mean, okay, I have a data point that says that more than half, and we can throw the chart up for this. So more than half of Gen Z-ers reported trying to quit social media in 2025, and they didn't really succeed. This is according to Check My Insurance.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Um, and they were the only demographic group to rank it abo- as their leading habit that they're trying to quit. They ranked it above fast food. They ranked it above sugar. They ranked it above alcohol. So I do think that there is- Wow ... like a, a cultural sentiment that's burgeoning within that generation trying- Uh-huh

Paola Flores-Marquez: to step away from it.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Wow. And-

Suzy Davidkhanian: Well, and I think... Oh, no, go ahead. Tell me. Tell me. No, no, no. No, no. I was just gonna say- Tell me ... I really, really think there is a movement, and has been for a while now, around unplugging and digital- Yeah ... detox. I think this idea of health and wellness, mental health wellness sort of has helped that behavior be front and center.

Suzy Davidkhanian: But I just don't think that people are able to disconnect as easily and [00:07:00] as intentionally as they once wanted to, which is- Mm-hmm ... to your question, like, did they choose to be at a phone-free event, or did it happen to end up being phone-free? So, like, it's, there is this, uh, tension. And as you can see from the Harris Poll data in the chart, 81% of Gen Z adults and 78% of millennials wish that they could disconnect from their devices more easily.

Gadjo Sevilla: Yeah. I, I think You know, the, the desire is there, but because these are such, uh, deeply entrenched habits, they, they sort of need help. And, you know, some, some device and OS makers have been going the minimal route. Uh, there, there's, uh, Beyond OS, which is a minimalist operating system that just b- gives you your calendar, your music, uh, phone and messaging.

Gadjo Sevilla: Although everything is there, it sort of hides, hides things away. Some, some people have, have used that. And then they've also scheduled, I guess, their, their social interactions to specific times in the day. Mm-hmm. So I mean, uh, I think just [00:08:00] the s- the surge of all these different, um, options shows that, you know, there, there, there is a need for it.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah.

Suzy Davidkhanian: A need or, like, people realize that they, they need a better relationship- Right ... with technology, and some of them, it's like an addiction in some ways, right? I mean- So some of them need more help than others ...

Paola Flores-Marquez: that's right. It's an addiction, but it's also, I think, it's, it's inescapable because that's the way in which we function with the rest of the world now, right?

Paola Flores-Marquez: Like, when you look at how- That's how they grew

Suzy Davidkhanian: up ...

Paola Flores-Marquez: yeah, it's how they grew up. It's entertainment, it's discovery. Like, so much of it is converging on a lot of these platforms that even when you wanna step away, you don't really have an option if you still wanna kind of stay up to date on things. Yeah. So they don't...

Paola Flores-Marquez: It, it's so much harder 'cause it's not just- Yeah ... it's not the TV where I can just turn it off and walk away. Yes. Like, it's something that's in my pocket at all times- Yeah ... and I need it- Yeah ... in order to contact my friends, in order to gather, in order to do research on a product I wanna buy.

Suzy Davidkhanian: Like- Yeah, it's like work, it's everything.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Yes.

Suzy Davidkhanian: All in one.

Marcus Johnson: It's stepping away. Yeah, it's stepping away, but it's step- where, where do people step away to? I think that's what they're struggling with. I was speaking to a friend of mine, um, who is, uh, Gen Z, and he was saying [00:09:00] that, you know, he doesn't wanna have to meet people online. But then if you don't meet people online, where, where else are you going?

Marcus Johnson: And so I think people are struggling with that. All my friends are online, so if I, okay, if I'm not, then it's not like, oh, okay, I'll go find all these other people living in the, in the, uh, in the real world. Um, I had two data points which I think highlight this. One, uh, nearly half of, um, Gen Z is sa- actively trying to reduce screen time.

Marcus Johnson: 32% of older people, that's YouGov, um, cited by Axios. Um, and then the second one here, this came from our senior, um, social media analyst, Mina Smiley, in her report, and she was saying, "For all the talk about Gen Z's obsession with social media, the generation is acutely aware of the grip social media has on their lives, and the majority, nearly 60%, saying it has, uh, had a negative impact on their generation, according to the Harris Poll."

Marcus Johnson: You can see from this chart on the screen, the majority, she says, uh, have tried to limit their usage in some way. Just 17% of Gen Z are saying they've never taken any steps to limit usage. About one [00:10:00] in seven people saying, "I've never done anything," to the rest, six in seven saying, "I've tried at least something," unfollowing, muting accounts, deleting social media apps, disabling things, et cetera, et cetera.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Right. This is, uh, it's such a fascinating contrast. I mean, I do think we need to keep in mind that, like, the majority of Gen Z-ers are adults, right? So three in four Gen Z-ers are adults, so they're not children. But when you look- Yeah ... at the Pew, uh, research on teens, the majority of teens feel that they're on social media just the right amount.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Like, they disagree with the idea that, like, they're on that too much. Um- Mm-hmm ... and so I do think there's- Mm-hmm ... a shift that occurs as they get older and they realize how much control it has over their lives. But when they're teenagers- Yeah ... they're just kind of excited to be on it- Yeah ... 'cause it's new.

Marcus Johnson: What does logging off actually look like

Suzy Davidkhanian: in practice? This is my favorite question that you had for us because I actually don't think there's logging off, right? I think between our watches, the Oura Rings, all these different wearable technologies that don't let you log off, and the phones try to do these, like, um, you know, limits, [00:11:00] especially for younger kids, right?

Suzy Davidkhanian: Like, you can do limits, and then you hear, like, my niece and nephew will be like, "Can you add more minutes to my phone?" Mm-hmm. So it's like there's really no such thing as logging off anymore. It's more around- Yeah ... like, how do you find different activities to supplement your technological sort of-

Marcus Johnson: Dependence.

Suzy Davidkhanian: Yes. Uh,

Paola Flores-Marquez: I do think it's very ironic that one of the solutions is to throw more technology at it. Yeah. Like the brick or the dumb phone. Yeah. Like, just to turn and resolve this issue

Gadjo Sevilla: with- Like a placebo. It's something you can hold and touch- Yeah ... but doesn't give you the same

Suzy Davidkhanian: It's almost like logging off means being a little bit more analog, but not, not completely getting rid of social and email and like, like you were saying before, the phone is the gateway to so many things in addition to being on the social media platform.

Gadjo Sevilla: Mm-hmm.

Paola Flores-Marquez: I do think that, I think Gen Z-ers are, well, again, Gen Z-ers are a majority adults, and so I think now they have the means to seek out and invest more in, like, physical hobbies now. [00:12:00] So we're talking, like, pottery and in-person events and, like, kind of in a way that they didn't have before. So I do think that that is kinda what logging off looks like.

Paola Flores-Marquez: But again, as Marcus mentioned earlier, how do you find these things online? Like, how do you get inspired by these things online? Yeah. So I think you're right, there really is no completely disconnecting from it.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. I was also won- I thought this was a really interesting quote as well from, uh, Sarah, uh, Polak.

Marcus Johnson: Uh, she works at Pinterest. She was saying, uh, her team wasn't sure if going phone-free would resonate with young people the same way that it has for people who grew up in a more analog world. Uh, saying, "We're wondering if you have only grown up with tech by your side, would you have the same reaction?

Marcus Johnson: Would you have nostalgia for something you may not have actually lived yourself?"

Paola Flores-Marquez: Yeah. I think kids are always idealizing the, the past, and right now we're in a Y2K revival, and Y2K means not looking at your phones. It means being in the clubs. It means like, you know, emo revival, like being at concerts.

Paola Flores-Marquez: And like, I think [00:13:00] they, they weren't there, so I mean, some of them were there, but they were very young. Um, but I do think that they're romanticizing a time where everything is working better and they're- Yeah ... they have a better, they're in a better, they have more optimism, right?

Marcus Johnson: So is this trend a temporary backlash, or do we think it's the beginning of a long-term cultural shift away from digital, away from screens?

Gadjo Sevilla: I think it's, it's a rebalancing. Mm-hmm. Mm. It's, it's- Sure ... it's gonna be a, um, you know, a, a norm. Uh, whether it, it extends beyond, you know, generations or demographics, um, remains to be seen, but there are benefits to it for sure. And I think people enjoying that firsthand, say, like in a concert where they can fully experience, uh, you know, not from behind a phone, but, uh, in real life.

Gadjo Sevilla: As more of those things kind of, um, you know, add value to, to their experiences, it could, it could, [00:14:00] it could continue I think, for sure.

Marcus Johnson: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Paola Flores-Marquez: I think it's definitely emphasized by like the court win against Meta as well- Yeah ... where you kind of have like evidence now that this is really bad for us. Yeah.

Paola Flores-Marquez: And I do think- Mm ... it's kind of another facet of social media- Mm ... becoming entertainment, right? Like more and more it is what we turn on in order to like kind of disconnect from the day. And, uh, uh, as I said earlier, like as we realize that we can't spend all day watching TV, I think we're realizing we cannot spend all day just scrolling on our phones.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Yeah.

Suzy Davidkhanian: Yeah. For me too it was about rebalancing 'cause I think everybody is just so acutely aware of this constantly being on world and that that's not good for them for many reasons. And so like they're trying to figure out, so it's like digital fatigue plus, "Oh no, this is not good for me," and health and wellness is such a big movement right now.

Suzy Davidkhanian: Mm-hmm. And it has been for a long time. Yeah. It's just moving into other parts of our world, which includes entertainment, digital behaviors. So I just think it's, like you, it's a rebalancing.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Yeah, picking up on what you said, um- [00:15:00] further about, uh, the all-day scrolling component. It does seem as though, um, not only have people cottoned onto the fact that that may not be g- uh, might not be great for them, but companies as well- Mm-hmm

Marcus Johnson: um, and trying to pivot away from, uh, that notion that come to the app, come to your device, uh, use our service, but use it for as long as possible. Um, it was dating app, uh, Bumble I was reading, they're ditching their swipe feature- I saw that ... uh, which is basically scrolling but sideways. Mm-hmm. Uh, saying to p- they're trying to pivot towards AI-driven matchmaking, right?

Marcus Johnson: So Natalie, uh, Natalie Daya of Axios explaining that the right time... It's the right time for a product overhaul as Bumble deals with struggling business due to Gen Z dating app fatigue. So I wonder if you're gonna see other examples of companies saying, "Yeah, like that scrolling thing, um, isn't working for us."

Marcus Johnson: I mean, there was actually a Marketing Brew article from Katie Hicks reading, um, "Why would a social media platform tell you to get off your phone?" And Sara Polak, who I mentioned earlier, Pinterest VP and Global Head of Consumer Marketing, she was saying that she's confident that the platform can grow even as it i- [00:16:00] e- even as it encourages people to stro- to stop scrolling.

Paola Flores-Marquez: I, I think the faster that they jump on acknowledging that and sort of like kind of encouraging more, more responsible usage, like the faster that they either retain or regain consumer trust, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because right now everyone's feeling like it's kind of predatory.

Suzy Davidkhanian: Yeah.

Paola Flores-Marquez: And so if they lean into that and, I don't know, like incorporate a setting to put like self, like limit your time on there- Yeah

Paola Flores-Marquez: I think it would have a huge benefit for them. They're,

Gadjo Sevilla: they're doing that to, to avoid the liability, especially, uh, since there's, there's clear connections to mental health, right?

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Gadjo Sevilla: And I think even, uh, YouTube Shorts does that for younger users. It's, um, y- you know, parents can Kind of limit the time or the amount of engagement.

Gadjo Sevilla: Um, so, so we're seeing, you know, them lean on that to say, "Well, you know, we have the tools. It's up to you whether you- you use them or not, but they're there."

Marcus Johnson: Yeah.

Suzy Davidkhanian: For me, [00:17:00] the mindless scrolling is also, like, a ritual. So I think as, like for example, if Pinterest is able to help people- Mm-hmm ... inspire people to get off their phones and go do real things in real life, and that turns into a habit or a ritual for them or a sense of community, I think they'll have a better chance.

Suzy Davidkhanian: Um, it is kind of funny that it's tech companies that are trying to figure out how to get you off your phone.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Mm-hmm.

Suzy Davidkhanian: But it's also- Yeah ... real company- not s- not, not the tech companies aren't real companies, but, like, companies with tangible products that are also trying to figure out how to do this sense of community- Mm-hmm

Suzy Davidkhanian: and, like, coffee shop integrations or, like, I mean, Lululemon has been doing it for a long time, this idea of you can go do yoga in their classes or- I've done

Paola Flores-Marquez: those. They're fun.

Suzy Davidkhanian: Right? Yeah. Or, like, treasure hunt behaviors. Like, everybody from every angle is trying to figure out, how do we pl- replace the mindless scrolling with tangible ritual-type things to do?

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Yeah, and technology, um, it doesn't, we don't have to use it as much as we use it, and we could use it. Like, a lot of the time you'll find, you know, [00:18:00] groups to join online, and then you'll go and you'll be in those groups in the real world. And, um, in that Marketing Brew piece as you was writing, "Google and Meta platforms increasingly focus on short-form video consumption.

Marcus Johnson: Pinterest is looking to be seen as a place for helping people find inspiration online so that they can go and live offline." Um, and Ally Payne, CMO of Heineken USA is saying, "It's not about being like all tech is bad, but what we want to do is use tech in a way that actually does bring people together."

Marcus Johnson: Um, will those messages resonate though, I wonder? Will going offline, the going offline message catch on for brands and 'cause, uh, Ms.- Yes ... uh, Pollock from Pinterest was saying consumer blowback towards greenwashing- Mm-hmm ... or brands that feel disingenuous about the message, um, is putting forth, um, like that, that could backfire maybe.

Suzy Davidkhanian: So on the retail front though it's g- it's guaranteed that it'll, it, it has already resonated and will continue to do so. A couple years ago Ulta did a concert for its loyal members, you know, like at a big stadium. It is a thing [00:19:00] that we keep- Mm ... track of, um, over the years in terms of, like, loyalty programs, the next iteration, and also stores are 80% of sales.

Suzy Davidkhanian: Uh, you know, of course it's different depending on the category, but absolutely retailers and brands have to find different ways of getting people off their couches and into stores. Yeah. Um, critical. So I, I think it's not a one-time solution- Mm ... but I also don't think it's a current trend that will go away.

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, it's interesting this idea of companies built on digital, around digital products helping- Yeah ... users to live less digital lives. Uh, a recent separate art and marketing brand school from Alan, um, Adamson. Uh, or sorry, no, it cited Alan Adamson, co-founder of brand consulting, uh, consultancy Metaphor saying, some, uh, saying, m- uh, "More marketers may lean into encouraging in-person connection and real-life experiences, especially as digital spaces become more crowded."

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm. Um- Mm-hmm ... so Paola, I'll start with you for this one. What to you are some of the best examples of [00:20:00] brands taking note of this trend and creating real-world experiences?

Paola Flores-Marquez: So I really love fashion, and I love, um... My, my grandma was a seamstress, so, um, she taught me how to use a sewing machine. Um, and Levi's has a tailoring and customization studio that you can go and take your clothes and sort of like DIY it and like learn new techniques.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Um, so I think that's really helpful, and it totally leans into, uh, their brand, which is really, really cool. Um- Very nice. Yeah, and I think you already mentioned the, the workout classes. Like, I've been to those.

Suzy Davidkhanian: I mean, it's a dime a dozen, right? Mm-hmm. It's like from Netflix doing stores- Mm-hmm ... to Harry Potter movies turning into stores and experiences.

Suzy Davidkhanian: But then there are these like unique to that company sort of, um, activations and pop-ups- Mm ... and ways of thinking about how to bring a brand to life that is different. So like- I'm gonna t- I'm gonna keep going

Paola Flores-Marquez: Yeah.

Suzy Davidkhanian: Yeah.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Just saying.

Suzy Davidkhanian: Yeah. I don't know if it's okay. [00:21:00] This is where you're supposed to practice.

Suzy Davidkhanian: It's not me.

Marcus Johnson: No, no, no. This is good. It's n-

Suzy Davidkhanian: So, like, I think if the brands are doing it with an intention in mind, so of course there are, like, the, the Nike run clubs. I mean, the list is endless. But, like, one of the activations last year that I thought was very cool in New York was Nest, the scent, sort of like, they do fragrances- Mm-hmm

Suzy Davidkhanian: and they do, um, all kinds of different candles and everything. Very good giftable. They were launching a new scent, and they did these, like, scent walking path sort of things as you're walking down the avenue, so you can smell the new scents. And it's, like, a very physical experience for something that you would not be expecting- Mm-hmm

Suzy Davidkhanian: and was much better than an ad, right? And so I think companies need to think about these experiences to get folks out of the digital realm into the real-world realm in a, in a more sort of transparent, fun, new way. So my actual example is not Nest. It's L.L.Bean has been for the last five years doing this Off the Grid campaign.

Suzy Davidkhanian: Yeah. I know, Marcus. I snuck one in, sorry. And what I find really [00:22:00] fascinating about L.L.Bean is, like, it's known for its outdoor world, right? Mm-hmm. For durable, fun products outside. They understand that this is an issue, so they have limited edition anal- this year it's an- and it just launched, analog totes and Off the Grid totes, and you can customize them.

Suzy Davidkhanian: You can customize a bunch of things from sunglasses to binoculars. They want you to go birdwatching and camping and all kinds of other things that are L.L.Bean related, and they are doing it as a pause for Mental Health Month. It's the fifth year, so there is longevity in what they're doing. And while it feels like a one, one-off kind of thing, it's not.

Suzy Davidkhanian: And it has all these, like, again, it's tied to merchandise. I think it's just there are so many different ways that you can bridge the gap between online and in-store and it feel real. And that for me- Mm-hmm ... that was a really good example.

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm. Very nice. Um, Gadja, what about for you?

Gadjo Sevilla: Yeah, well, just to add to that, there's the added benefit of actually understanding your audience in real time, you know, getting all those insights, being able to connect at [00:23:00] that level without, without having to wait, right?

Gadjo Sevilla: So I think that, you know, these, these real life, uh, you know, campaigns or activations do, do really give you that, plus- You know, the, the buzz and the hype also carries and pushes the brand's name out there. So, you know, word of mouth becomes something in play here as well.

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Paola Flores-Marquez: I, I think as we were talking about earlier as well, I think that for a long time, and maybe still, there's like a fear of engaging with other people in these spaces, right?

Paola Flores-Marquez: I think it's maybe left over from the pandemic. Maybe it's a bunch of other things. Maybe it's because we're due online. Um, but I think there's a fear of being uncomfortable, and I think we're hitting a point where people are ready to be a little bit uncomfortable if it means they get a different experience.

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Yeah. Um, and so I do think that it would do well to capitalize on this cultural moment.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Uncomfortable, you mean, uh, being in the real world?

Paola Flores-Marquez: I mean, yeah, sometimes things are awkward. Um, sometimes- Mm-hmm ... social interactions are awkward. Like, I've been to meetup groups where I was like, "Oh, this was a [00:24:00] mistake" And then I've been to meetup groups where I've made lifelong friends, right?

Paola Flores-Marquez: Like, that's the price. Yeah, when you're at the

Marcus Johnson: coffee shop- Or, yes ... and then you have a coffee order in your face, and you're like, "I'm a real person." Oh. Just put it down and say, "Here you go, sir."

Paola Flores-Marquez: Exactly like that.

Gadjo Sevilla: So it's really about- It's all over ... going beyond the comfort zone, right?

Paola Flores-Marquez: Yes, yes. And I do think like, yeah, having these places, these brands and these activities are provided as an excuse, right, to do it, and then- Yeah

Paola Flores-Marquez: we can't handhold people. Like, they have to do it themselves once they get there, but it is good to provide that space.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Talking about providing that space, I thought this was, this is kind of slightly related, but I thought it was so interesting, um, I wanted to talk about it. That so- so Stephen Fry, he's a British actor, comedian, writer, director, broadcaster, uh, the voice of the Harry Potter books, I believe.

Marcus Johnson: V for

Paola Flores-Marquez: Vendetta as well.

Marcus Johnson: He did what?

Paola Flores-Marquez: V for Vendetta, I think. That's him. Yeah. Yeah, right? Yeah.

Marcus Johnson: Oh, is that what it is? Yeah. Okay. Um, and he's written a lot about Greek mythology, and I was r- uh, watching an interview with him the other day, and he was talking about, uh, Hestia, who's the Greek goddess of the hearth, which is the area in front of a fire.

Marcus Johnson: And he was saying that, [00:25:00] um, a lot- we used to gather around fire to stay warm and would tell stories, and that we don't do that anymore. We don't gather. We don't eat around tables. Nobody gathers around and shares stories. And I just- Thought that, um, there's so many opportunities for brands to get involved in trying to be, trying to help people gather around a table, which is such a simple act.

Marcus Johnson: Um, but I feel like that's a, a space that people could, and especially brands could, could try to f- um, help, uh, or find their way into to help people just, even just sitting around a table. Uh, it doesn't have to be they have to create this, you know, amazing activation experience in the real... Just people sitting at the tables they already have in their houses, um, would be something.

Suzy Davidkhanian: I feel like there are lots of now apps, again, it's all starts with an app, a digital component, right? That are trying to get random groups of people. You do take a assessment. What are you looking for, blah, blah, blah. Oh, I've done those. Yes. Yes. How can you- Yeah. I haven't done it yet, but there's lots in like, when I first moved to New Y- there was this thing called Gastronauts.

Suzy Davidkhanian: There's lots of [00:26:00] different sort of... I, do you know about that one? It was really cool. And they would, like, have a- Crazy ... James Beard chef-esque kind of person. Yeah. And they would find a space that was gigantic, that had a kitchen, like usually- Yeah ... church basements. And you would go and you would sit with people you didn't know.

Suzy Davidkhanian: Oh, yeah. You buy a ticket and you would sit with people you didn't know. Yeah. And you would make conversation. And I think, I really do think it's like many other parts of the world of technology, right? When people are finally ready, like think about the QR code, when people are finally ready, it'll happen.

Suzy Davidkhanian: People will stop- Mm-hmm ... doing whatever digital activity that they were doing and come and be in real life. Whether it's like a church basement dinner- Mm-hmm ... or whether it's a giant activation, it doesn't, doesn't matter what the it is, people will get there when they're ready. It's like brands have been, Nike's been doing the running club for I don't know how many years.

Suzy Davidkhanian: Once b- people are ready. It's like takes two, it takes both sides.

Marcus Johnson: But you could do this with people that you do know. That's I guess the point I'm making is- Yeah ... you can do this with friends or family that are already in your life and you feel comfortable with.

Paola Flores-Marquez: I [00:27:00] have, um, so my friends and I do like a, a cookbook club.

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Where we pick a cookbook- Yes ... and then we each assign, like pick an appetizer, pick a main, pick whatever. Yeah. And so we've been doing at each other's homes- Do you have a potluck after? ... which has been lovely. Huh? Oh. You have a

Gadjo Sevilla: potluck after?

Paola Flores-Marquez: Y- uh, yeah. We all bring the food and then we all hang out and we like- Yes.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Yeah. It's just to hang, but with a purpose, right? And so I think- Mm-hmm ... one of the things we've, we've been having fun and we've been saving money, uh, doing at each other's houses, but I think part of it is that our next step was like, well, what if we like host it somewhere? Like what if we like ask a space if they could like have us- Oh, cool

Paola Flores-Marquez: so we could have more people. Yeah. Or like- Mm-hmm ... what if we did... This weekend we're doing a little field trip, so we're gonna go check out like a cookbook, uh, like bookstore and then we're gonna try out some different food spots. But like there's opportunities to tap into these community events- Yeah ... and like kind of like, yeah, just support them and then that- Yeah

Paola Flores-Marquez: like kind of provide that space in that way.

Gadjo Sevilla: But also the whole discussion around authenticity, right? Yeah. A lot of pushback on, on maybe ads and campaigns that [00:28:00] don't feel authentic. And, you know, getting together in, in r- in real life with real people-

Suzy Davidkhanian: Yeah ...

Gadjo Sevilla: um, what's more authentic than that?

Suzy Davidkhanian: Yeah. Yeah.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Yeah.

Suzy Davidkhanian: To me, the most important part of all of this is to just remember that we make a lot of assumptions about people- Mm-hmm Yeah ... especially about Gen Z. Mm-hmm. Or, like, all the shopping is online. For any generation, it's not true, right? No. And so I think the most important part is to just remember that what we think people are doing is maybe not what they're actually doing, and so it's important to take a step back.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Right, yeah. I think it's important to sort of idea- like, figure out, like, what is it that they, they genuinely want, which is the hardest question to ask, right?

Gadjo Sevilla: It's like what do they want today- Yes ... could be different from- Yes ... what they want next week.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 1,000%.

Marcus Johnson: I want to, uh, quickly, uh, point to this last example, Gadjo.

Marcus Johnson: You had Kit Kats- Hmm ... creating a break mode phone wrapper. Oh, yes. I love this one. Uh, a Faraday cage to block signals, turning a snack break into a true digital experience. I don't know how this works, but I think it's brilliant.

Gadjo Sevilla: It, it ties [00:29:00] into their whole take a break, right? Yeah. That, that's their whole slogan.

Gadjo Sevilla: Uh-huh. So they've actually given you, uh, you know, the, the tool to, to, to just hide your, your device and go off grid. Um, so as to how it is used or how successful it is, I don't know. But it, it's, it really ties into their brand. Yeah. So I think that's- Yeah ... that's really smart.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah, really clever example. Um, all right, f- folks.

Marcus Johnson: That's all we've got time for, uh, for today's episode. Thank you so much to my guests for hanging out with me today, uh, or with each other in the studio, but me on the video chat. Thank you to Paola. Thank

Paola Flores-Marquez: you so much.

Marcus Johnson: And Suzy.

Paola Flores-Marquez: Thanks for having me.

Marcus Johnson: And Gadjo.

Gadjo Sevilla: This was great, you guys. Thank you.

Marcus Johnson: And the whole production crew, Luigi, John, Lance, whoever else is hiding in the background.

Marcus Johnson: To everyone listening to Mind the Numbers New Marketer Podcast, thank you. Uh, we'll be back on Monday. Until then, happiest of weekends.