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Marcus Johnson: [00:00:00] Atmosphere TV is the largest streaming TV platform purpose-built for shared social spaces, like bars, restaurants, gyms, and airports. Atmosphere TV is the creator of CHIVE TV and over 30 mesmerizing audio optional channels that entertain over 150 million monthly viewers. Built for business, made for fun.

Marcus Johnson: Atmosphere TV

Marcus Johnson: Welcome everyone to In the Game, a new market to sports marketing podcast made possible by Atmosphere TV. This is a conversation about the micd-up era, how behind-the-scenes docuseries like Drive to Survive or Quarterback act as the ultimate top-of-the-funnel marketing tool to convert casual viewers into obsessed fans.

Marcus Johnson: Hello, folks. I'm Marcus, and today I'm alongside [00:01:00] senior analyst living in Westchester, Mr. Ross Benes.

Ross Benes: Hey, Marcus.

Marcus Johnson: Hello, fella. And senior forecasting analyst living out in Utah, Mr. Zach Goldner.

Zach Goldner: Hello, hello.

Marcus Johnson: Hello. Uh, today we're talking all about, gents, when sports became entertainment. Sports used to be something you watched.

Marcus Johnson: Now, increasingly, it's a, a world that you can get immersed in, or they're worlds that you get immersed in, from Drive to Survive and Welcome to Wrexham, to Hard Knocks and Heated Rivalry, storytelling is turning athletes' rivalries and entire leagues into entertainment franchises and bringing new fans into the fold along the way.

Marcus Johnson: But what actually turns a casual viewer into an obsessed fan? And who owns that relationship when the story exists everywhere from Netflix to TikTok? Today, we're asking whether all the ancillary content makes the games themselves more valuable or not, which sports are still leaving this opportunity on the table, and what happens when a sport becomes an entertainment IP machine.[00:02:00]

Marcus Johnson: So, uh, Ross, I'll start with you. Shows like Drive to Survive, as we mentioned, Hard Knocks, Welcome to Wrexham, Quarterback, Heated Rivalry, they've all made audiences care about sports they may not have previously followed. What do you think is the, or are the secret ingredients?

Ross Benes: Well, those shows are all quite different.

Ross Benes: You have dramas in there- Yeah ... as well as docuseries. Mm-hmm. What they all tend to give you is, uh, aspect of the sport that you don't see just from watching it. Now, Heated Rivalry, obviously that's, um, you know, not based on, like, a, a real person, so that's a little bit different than Hard Knocks, which is following- Right

Ross Benes: an NFL mini camp of, of actual athletes. But they, um, they show, like, behind the scenes a- and, and in a more intimate way than you tend to get otherwise, and I think fans have always wanted that, and now you're getting more, like, locker room or, um, access to even some of these people's lives [00:03:00] where you start to see athletes act like creators.

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm. Yeah, access is a good word. Uh, and you do start to feel the sense of intimacy. You start to get, develop a stake i- in what's happening. Uh, how about for you, Zach? What are the ingredients? Yeah,

Zach Goldner: access was gonna be, uh, what I was gonna talk about here. Mm. It's a secret sauce. Mm-hmm. Uh, I think it's a great entryway into a sport without actually understanding the sport first.

Zach Goldner: Uh, instead, I think the easiest way to get someone to care about a sport isn't to sell them the sport itself, but to sell them the people that are doing the sport. So Drive to Survive, I think, is one of the best examples of that. Yeah. If, if you were to tune into an F1 race without knowing anything about Formula 1, you're just watching 20 cars drive around-

Zach Goldner: in a circle for a while. But if you're watching the show, uh, then you're understanding the characters, rivalries, the strategy, and then suddenly the race is meaning something to you. Mm. So you don't have to be an F1 expert at [00:04:00] first, but the show's kind of helping you do the onboarding itself. Yeah. The second piece to this, which I think is really important in today's age, is that we're living currently in a reality TV era.

Zach Goldner: People love getting access to worlds that they can't normally see. Uh, we wanna know what it's like to be a Real Housewife, maybe some of us do- ... an NFL quarterback, a F1 driver, or being an owner of a professional team.

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Zach Goldner: I think that's what really kind of combines all of us in our cultural desires is to be someone or somewhere that we're not supposed to be.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah.

Zach Goldner: Uh, yeah.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah, it's, it's really this difference between selling the sport, Zach, to kind of what you were saying earlier, versus selling, uh, a story. A- and I think shows, um, like Welcome to Wrexham, like Heated Rivalry, they've given audiences a reason to care, um, before, Zach, to your point, they even understand the rules, the standings, how the [00:05:00] game works.

Marcus Johnson: Uh, you're getting introduced, uh, Ross, to what you were saying, to, to characters, to relationships, to success, failure, rivalries, uh, identity to a certain extent. Um, and the sport is just the forum where all of that happens.

Zach Goldner: Marcus, one, one other point on that. You have currently roughly half of Americans, uh, who have in either high school or college partaken in some type of organized or competitive sport.

Zach Goldner: However, it is just 3 and 10 million, uh, Americans who are currently a professional athlete. So I think this kind of gives them, uh, the ability to kind of step into that seat of what, what is like to be one of those professional athletes, what it's like, and you're seeing how someone prepares, and what happens after the game, the pressure of it.

Zach Goldner: And you know that there's somewhere a 38-year-old sitting on his couch thinking, "You know, if it weren't for that elbow sophomore year," "... like, this could've been me."

Marcus Johnson: Yeah.

Zach Goldner: And it's not gonna be him- It's not gonna be me ... it's not gonna be [00:06:00] me, but lets us both dream.

Ross Benes: There's a lot of Uncle Ricos out there.

Marcus Johnson: Um, so, uh, Ross, does this, in your opinion, ancillary content ultimately make the live broadcast more valuable because viewers now have an emotional stake i- in the people competing, or perhaps the other side of that, it makes it less, people care less about the actual games themselves?

Ross Benes: I'd say it's flat more depending on the league and the series, but I, I don't see why any of this stuff would make the live broadcast less valuable 'cause you're not really cannibalizing the live broadcast. Like, no one's, like, gonna put on Hard Knocks and go, "Well, did, did the Bills win Sunday? I'm gonna, I'm gonna watch a documentary about it three weeks later to find out if they won that game."

Ross Benes: Yeah. Or, or in the case of, like, Quarterback, like, that, that's gonna come out nine months after that game aired. Um, a- and same with those races in F1. Like, y- you're not watching that to find the results out particularly. You probably [00:07:00] already know the results if you're a fan of it. And then if you're not a fan and you're coming in, then that's just additive audience.

Ross Benes: Mm-hmm. So, and I think some of these series don't add a ton to their sport, but some of them do, and there isn't really a whole lot of drawback on doing it as long as you find willing participants, um, able to do it. I know with Quarterback they, they had some troubles. That's why they made the show Receiver, 'cause it's pretty taxing to ask people to volunteer to do

Marcus Johnson: this stuff.

Marcus Johnson: Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Ross Benes: But then they went back to it. I think they dropped their standards, um, a little bit. You know, they had, like, Mahomes in the first season. Um, not all quarterbacks of that level wanna deal with this cr- stuff.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Uh, Zach, do you agree? It's, it's making, i- it's gonna make the broadcast more valuable, not less?

Zach Goldner: Yeah. To me, it's much more- Okay ... of a complimentary experience rather than cannibalistic. If I were to see someone watching Quarterback during a live NFL game or Drive to Survive while the Monaco Grand Prix is going on, I'd think that person's crazy. What would he be doing watching that during the time of a live game, you know?

Zach Goldner: Yeah. So I [00:08:00] don't see that taking away from that experience. But if anything, from a league's perspective, it's just giving more entry points into the sport.

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Zach Goldner: Not everyone is gonna start their fandom from buying an expensive cable package, uh, to sit down to watch a three-hour game, but maybe they start with a Netflix series, maybe they see a TikTok video, something on YouTube.

Zach Goldner: It's giving them much more access, uh, to getting into the sport, and then from there on, maybe they do decide to buy a cable package or maybe they decide to buy Peacock. Yeah. Things of that nature.

Marcus Johnson: So- I'll present the argument that agrees with what you guys are saying, and then I'll pose a question to offer the, the counter.

Marcus Johnson: So there was a bump, a h- a, a heated rivalry, uh, th- the heated rivalry gave the NHL, so more people started watching hockey. Um, the first stretch of nationally televised games on ABC, ESPN, and TNT following the 2026 Winter Olympics averaged over [00:09:00] 600,000 viewers. That's mark, uh, that marks a 23% increase over pre-Olympic numbers that analysts directly attribute to the heated rivalry spillover.

Marcus Johnson: That came out just a few months before the games. Um, weekly ticket sales, uh, NHL ticket sales jumped over 20% almost immediately after the show premiered. Uh, first time in solo fan ticket sales spiked by 13%, according to ticket retailer, uh, SeatGeek. And the N- uh, NHL, uh, commissioner as well, Gary Bettman, said he binged the whole, uh, he binged the whole show, uh, after seeing the surge in numbers, later crediting the series for introducing a whole new group of people to the sport.

Marcus Johnson: My question, I guess, is it, you may not see people watching them side by side, but, uh, uh, is this more of a, a longer term issue in that the, the new wave of fans that you're ushering into the game aren't the same fervent kind of dedicated fans who just wanna watch the sport, but they're more kind of casual individuals?

Marcus Johnson: So like kind of what, what happens when [00:10:00] the sport becomes entertainment IP and lives across docuseries, podcasts, YouTube, social clips, Netflix, TikTok, creator content? Are you, Zach, diluting the fan too much, enabled to get access to more of them?

Zach Goldner: Sure. You, you could definitely say that. But I think that at the end of the day, these leagues wanna see their viewer numbers increase.

Zach Goldner: When it's all said and done and all these podcasts are out there, I don't think you're gonna see the hardcore fan really turn away- Mm-hmm ... from the

Marcus Johnson: sport. Yeah. Ross?

Ross Benes: Well, in the case of the NHL, they could use more casual fans. They have, like, their- Mm-hmm ... strong, really fervent fan base, but it's not a ton of people.

Ross Benes: And most people in the US, not, not as much in Canada, but especially in the US, don't follow hockey that much. So even if it's just casual followers, that's, that's a plus for the NHL. But with these series, um, you know, it's, it's interesting Gary Bettman had that comment, and that, that probably also- Mm

Ross Benes: speaks to, like, where [00:11:00] the NHL is right now. 'Cause the NFL actually had a complete opposite reaction about 20 years ago when the show Playmakers was on ESPN and it, it showed some controversial stuff, um, that pro football players, in a fictionalized setting, um, that pro football players go through. And, and they had ES- the NFL had ESPN kill that show off despite having good ratings.

Ross Benes: Um, now- Mm ... the NFL is a behemoth who doesn't really need a whole lot more casual viewers, but if you portray the shield negatively, the NFL will try to bury you under a volcano. Whereas- ... uh, the NHL, um, you know, they're all for a, a show being popular that's about hockey even if it's not exactly what you would see on a broadcast.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah.

Zach Goldner: I wanna bring up one other point here with the NFL and casual viewers. I think one of the biggest storylines that we saw in the last few years has been none other but T Swift and Travis Kelce.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah.

Zach Goldner: You've had hundreds of thousands or maybe millions of fans who are just tuning in to go see [00:12:00] a, a rare glimpse of Taylor Swift.

Zach Goldner: I'm sure that as in its own, uh, own series as of yet is bringing a lot more, uh, viewers, a lot more ad dollars to those games in particular.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Yeah, it's a great example of how entertainment and sports have collided, um, those two worlds. Zach, what makes someone cross the line from casual viewer into obsessed fan?

Zach Goldner: Hmm. Could be you being subjected to the sport as a kid, years of torment and suffering- ... interrupted by only brief glimpses of hope that are inevitably crushed. Is, is that just me as a Bears fan? Oh. As

Marcus Johnson: a, I was g- I was gonna say as a Jazz fan, but yeah, Bears too.

Zach Goldner: Bears too. It's, it's, I, it's a tough life-

Zach Goldner: having some weird different fandoms. Uh, but I d- do think there is something behind that. The line b- between casually watching a sport and becoming obsessed with it is when something that you watch starts actually becoming part of your identity. It can be from you i- inheriting it from your parents, [00:13:00] could be you playing the sport growing up, or it could just be you tuning into one incredible game that makes you really invested moving down the line.

Zach Goldner: I also think that community is a huge part of it as well.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah.

Zach Goldner: If you live in a big sports town, you know that the energy in the city is either up or down depending on what happened the prior day, and I think that all those kind of factors, being able to talk about it to your friends and coworkers, all of those aspects of you don't wanna miss out, so that can turn you into a casual to a, a super fan.

Zach Goldner: And I-

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Yeah, Ross, I was looking at some of the numbers for the F1 viewership in the US, and Drive to Survive definitely, um, resulted in a spike, uh, after it came out, but there was a bit of a dip in the following couple of years. I think 2022 it spiked, '23 and '24 it was down a bit. I think it went back up in 2025, so the question becomes how do you turn that casual viewer, someone who's just getting into the series, um, into a, an, an obsessed [00:14:00] fan?

Marcus Johnson: Maybe you don't need to. Perh- perhaps you don't need to, but what, what do you think could make someone cross over from casual to obsessed?

Ross Benes: Well, yeah, in many cases I just don't think you're able to. Mm. I- if someone's really into that show because they were looking for a TV show on Netflix to get into, and they found it very interesting, that doesn't necessarily mean they wanna sit there for a multiple-hour race consistently.

Ross Benes: Yeah. And, and the same would go for a quarterback or, you know, like, not everyone's gonna wanna sit through a bunch of NFL games. Um, but to Zach's point, I think the biggest thing that turns people into obsessed fans is, is who i- is into this thing in their lives already. So, like, if your, if your family, uh, is really into a particular team or sport, um, you know, chances are you follow that even if you're not the biggest fan.

Ross Benes: It- it's something that you've grew up with and that you consume and that you can talk about with people. If you have friends that are really into a particular team or sport, it's easier to get into it. So if, [00:15:00] um, you know, you're a casual fan, and then suddenly, uh, y- you're watching F1, um, Drive to Survive, and you try to get into the races, but you don't really know anyone in your personal life who's into F1, I think that's a tough sell, but if you find people who are into that, um, that makes it a lot easier.

Ross Benes: Yep. And of course you can find those people online if they're not in your, um, you know, immediate circle, but if they're not already there, that's more of an uphill battle.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Um, who owns, gents, who owns the fan relationship now? I'll give you a few options here. Um, so the league, the team, the broadcaster, the streaming platform, or the athletes.

Marcus Johnson: Uh, Zach, who do you think owns the, the fan relationship? Select all that apply.

Zach Goldner: I think that's a tough one. Uh, end of the day where I would go is that people are always thinking, "Oh, it's the broadcasters are the ones that are having you [00:16:00] watch each and every game."

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Zach Goldner: Um, but I think when you look at it It is you're not tuning into a game because of the individual play-by-play commentator.

Zach Goldner: Even though Fox is paying Tom Brady $37.5 million a year, that's not the reason why I'm tuning into it. Uh, to the more, more the reason why I watch it is either the league itself-

Marcus Johnson: Yeah ...

Zach Goldner: or the team and the content around that team. Yeah. And I'll talk more about the content around the team, where I do think that team's social media presence is, is what is doing this ancillary, uh, content.

Zach Goldner: Interesting. Where if you're a Bills fan, you're watching all their Gen Z brain rot. Pieces of content that's ha- helping you relate to each and every one of these players, that there's a different side to them other than them wanting to kill the person on the other side- ... of the, uh, of, of the line. Um, but I think that that kinda humanizes the sport.

Zach Goldner: Yeah. Is that is what, who, who is owning, who's owning it these [00:17:00] days.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. I, I do ... Uh, Tom Brady, he's good though, isn't he? I mean, not just- Mm ... as a player, but as a commentator, I do like him. When he's on the broadcast, I am happy to see him there. Um-

Zach Goldner: He is improved, but have you ever tuned into a game because of him?

Zach Goldner: I can say I've tuned- No ... out of the game because of the announcer. Oh. Yeah.

Marcus Johnson: Uh, not because of, no, but I'm happy to see him when he's there. It's a good point. Ross, how about you? Which, uh, who do you think owns the fan relationship?

Ross Benes: Players are increasingly owning it. The league also has a stake. Who's not owning it, though, is- Mm

Ross Benes: independent media. They have taken a, a hit. Like, the, the fan relationship, you know, for years has, has been built on journalism and, and websites that cover all this stuff. And now what you see- Interesting ... is a sanitized product that is paid for and produced by the league that you're watching. Mm-hmm. So, like, I don't think you're gonna get, like, a, a great documentary on a current NFL player that is gritty and, and shows you what the league doesn't want you to see.

Ross Benes: You're gonna get something that the league [00:18:00] has a hand in producing, and that's the same in music, too. Like, um, I think of, like, the documentary that Netflix, um, cowardly killed about Prince because his estate didn't like it. Um, you're, you're just seeing more and more of that, where these, like, really popular figures, whether they're celebrities or athletes, are able to call their own shots and have media produced about them that is sanitized and fits the image they wanna project.

Ross Benes: And the stuff that is independently produced gets challenged or, or, or killed off and doesn't have as much support. Uh, like, great sports journalism websites have died by the dozens in the last 10 years, but athlete and creator-led productions about the NFL have proliferated. Mm, yeah. We just wanna see what they want us to see.

Marcus Johnson: That's a great take. So you're saying, like, you're, you're less likely to read a piece in, like, the LA Times, Sports Illustrated, uh, the New York Time- Yeah,

Ross Benes: The Athletic's struggling. SB Nation isn't what it used to be. Yeah. Like, Deadspin is a zombie website. Yeah. That sort of stuff that used to be great- Um, is, is hardly there.

Ross Benes: [00:19:00] But then, like, you know, you get Peyton Manning teaming up with the league to produce something that makes the league look really cool. Right,

Marcus Johnson: right.

Ross Benes: And I watch it, but, like- ... you know, it's not completely reality.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah, that's a good point. Um, I also think it's interesting, this question of who's earned the right to be the fan's first destination.

Marcus Johnson: Like, how are they coming in? Is it that you have a streaming service, and it's like... 'Cause a lot of the times now when I'm on the streaming services I have, they're saying, "Oh, click this to get access to the game." I'm like, "Oh, I didn't realize the games were also shown here." Is it the athlete? Um, that's increasingly becoming, uh, the place where people, uh, gain entry to, to the sport.

Marcus Johnson: Is it, uh, is it the team? Is it the broadcaster? So yeah, where are they, where are they, um, what's the gateway into the, into the sport? Well,

Ross Benes: and they are, they all are gateways. You know, it depends on- Right ... what the particular fan is consuming at that moment. I think you could find examples of people who came through each of those entry points that you mentioned.

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Um, Genesis end [00:20:00] with this. So, uh, we've talked about some of the sports that have been impacted by some of these dramas or docuseries, uh, things like Formula 1 and Drive to Survive, or the NFL and Quarterback, um, uh, Heated Rivalry and, um, uh, and, and Hockey and the, and the NHL. What sports, uh, Zach, I'll start with you, what sports or leagues are currently under-leveraging this opportunity, uh, and who could create a Drive to Survive style, uh, breakthrough that hasn't figured it out yet?

Zach Goldner: Yeah. Well, I come from Utah. As you might know, I love skiing, so I think that skiing and snowboarding can really easily fit in that category.

Marcus Johnson: Oh. Extreme

Zach Goldner: sports. Yeah. Some people don't watch it, but I, I do think that there's a bigger community around it than a lot of people might expect. You have great personalities, beautiful locations, crashes, uh, and people, like, doing some really cool stuff in there.

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Zach Goldner: Uh, and the thing is, you are [00:21:00] seeing the Olympics almost gatekeep, uh, the world's best skiers, and people are only paying attention once every four years. Mm-hmm. Uh, but meanwhile, Mikaela Shiffrin, outside the Olympics, is winning 100 world cups, and people just aren't witnessing the story kind of behind all of it.

Zach Goldner: Yeah. So I think that's one area we could go towards, and I think that'd be fun.

Marcus Johnson: That's a good one. Yeah, Sha- the short I watched, I can't remember where the documentary was, maybe ESPN, but it was a Shaun White comeback story.

Zach Goldner: Mm-hmm.

Marcus Johnson: Um, and then he went to the Olympics and won and, and that was, yeah, that was incredible.

Zach Goldner: Uh, besides the skiing, I think this whole conversation just made me more interested in having more Hard Knock series. I know it, um, with Hard Knocks it's one team every year. Like, I wanna watch the Bears every season. I wanna know kinda what is going- Interesting ... the drama behind it. Hmm. Sure, it might be a little bit repetitive, but y- when you are wanting to get invested every year into who your preseason players are and, like- Yeah

Zach Goldner: the roster around you, I don't care if I'm seeing too much of it. [00:22:00] As a sports fan, I wanna see my team every year. I don't care about what's happening with the New York Jets. No one does. Not even if you live in New York, you don't care about the Jets.

Marcus Johnson: Sorry, Dad, shots fired, but he's right. Um, that's a really interesting take 'cause, uh, you know, uh, the NBA Game Pass, League Pass, whatever it's called, where you can buy it and you get access to either your team or the season, or the games for the season, or the whole league, you could also sell this product, right?

Marcus Johnson: You could sell access to the behind-the-scenes content for- Yeah ... all the specific teams. Uh, that's a really good, yeah, that's a really good idea. Ross, uh, what league's under-leveraging this opportunity in your opinion?

Ross Benes: Well, I would say the Big Ten in general, but specifically- Mm ... college basketball. Yeah. And it's a, a, a tough thing to build a series around because there's so much roster turnover.

Ross Benes: Way, way more than even a pro team. Like, an entire roster- Right ... can flip over due to transfer portal and weird rules about eligibility and who's going pro. But, um, you know, college [00:23:00] basketball becomes such a phenomenon in March Madness. And, and for that month, I think they could do something to, um, catapult some like, casual fans into being more moderate fans.

Ross Benes: Now, it's kinda tough 'cause Netflix has done a ton of docuseries where it's just like, we follow a team for a year, and that format gets a little old, and you, you also wanna make sure you're following a team that's gonna be interesting and relevant. But when you look at how popular basket- college basketball is right there at that moment, it's kinda strange they don't have much for documentaries about it.

Ross Benes: The, the closest thing I would say is Netflix- Mm-hmm ... did, um, Last Chance U. Uh, and they had a few seasons where it was basketball, but that was JUCO basketball. It wasn't Division 1. And that was a spinoff of a series that was about football. And then they had a series where they followed SEC football for a year, and apparently that wasn't successful enough that they, they brought it back this season.

Ross Benes: But, um, you know, college basketball, p- part of the things that make it so chaotic [00:24:00] and hard to make a documentary about it w- would also make it an interesting documentary, though. If you followed those players' lives and you see that-

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm ...

Ross Benes: um, you got, you know, a, a guy who's playing, like, professionally in Turkey who gets recruited to come play in one part of the United States, who then gets poached to go play in another part of the United States.

Ross Benes: If you followed maybe a player or two and just go across, here's this crazy journey that like this, you know, 21-year-old man goes through within 18 months, I think it'd be very interesting. Because a lot of people don't realize that these guys are, are playing around the globe, really, before they- Mm-hmm ... get to the NBA- Mm-hmm

Ross Benes: and college is just one part of their journey.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good one. Um, getting a window into the college athletes and what they're having to go to to prepare to try to make it into, into the professional leagues, um, and all the moving around that goes with that. Uh, yeah, these are great i- ideas, guys.

Marcus Johnson: I had one for you. I think the WNBA, um, for a number of reasons. There are a ton of emerging stars at the moment. Uh, [00:25:00] obviously Caitlin Clark is n- um, uh, is a, a pretty, um, straightforward, uh, choice there. Olivia Miles, uh, she's having insane rookie season for the Lynx. Uh, Paige Bueckers, um, Angel Reese, et cetera, et cetera.

Marcus Johnson: Developing rivalries. You got team rivalries, the Las Vegas Aces and New York Liberty. Uh, just two teams are absolutely stacked with, with stars going, uh, head-to-head. You got the individual player rivalry, obviously, of Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese bringing their college rivalry to the WNBA. And then some interesting storylines.

Marcus Johnson: None, you can argue, bigger than what A'ja Wilson is doing in the sport. They could just follow her, to be honest. She became the first four-time MVP last year. Uh, and no one else has four. Uh, she's on the brink of five. She's leading the race, um, this year. She's the only NBA... Sorry, she's the only player in WNBA history to win regular season MVP Finals MVP, Defensive Player of the Year, a scoring [00:26:00] title, and a championship in the same season, which she accomplished in 2025.

Marcus Johnson: She also became the first player to score over 1,000 points in a season, which happened in 2024. So, uh, I mean, A- uh, A'ja Wilson alone could be a documentary. Um-

Ross Benes: Well, if they made a, a, a women's pro basketball documentary like that, I, I would say following a player, whether it's Wilson or otherwise- Yeah

Ross Benes: would be more interesting than a team. Because what, what, what I find so interesting is, um, the WNBA season ends, and then, like, they, they go, they go play internationally, or they play in Unrivaled. Yes. That there's so much basketball that they're playing that isn't just the... And then, you know, then, then obviously the international circuit, whether there's a worl- like a, a world championship or an Olympics involved.

Ross Benes: I mean, in one calendar year they could be putting on three different uniforms. Mm-hmm. And-

Marcus Johnson: Yeah ...

Ross Benes: you know, I mean, I know, I know you know that, but I don't know if that's very obvious to all the people who make comments about the WNBA.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah, it wasn't obvious to me until recently. The, the season [00:27:00] is, uh, roughly kind of April, May-ish to around September, October, so it's pretty short.

Marcus Johnson: And then, and then what? Especially given that the salaries were so low and you couldn't live off, you know, barely live off the salary- Yeah, that's what Brittany Griner did in Russia ... of just the WNBA. Yes, exactly. And so you had to go overseas to play, uh, to make up, uh, some more money for the rest of the year.

Marcus Johnson: Um, but yeah, you've got all these leagues now starting to emerge, and players going here, there, and everywhere, and it's, it... Yeah, that'll be a fascinating part of the story, the off-season part of the story. Um, well, that will do it. And I hope to see everyone for In The Game next month. Thank you so much to, uh, Stuart, uh, who runs the team, and, uh, Mike on the production, uh, te- for today's episode.

Marcus Johnson: And of course thank you to my guests. Thank you to Ross.

Zach Goldner: Thanks, Marcus.

Marcus Johnson: And to Zach.

Zach Goldner: Thanks for having us on.

Marcus Johnson: And to everyone listening in to In The Game: New Market Sports Marketing Podcast, made possible by Atmosphere TV. Suzy will be here tomorrow with the September Retailer [00:28:00] Awards.