[00:00:00] Marcus Johnson: Welcome, everyone, to In The Game, an eMarketer sports marketing podcast. Uh, this is a conversation about Caitlin Clarkonomics, where it goes now, and who the next breakout star might be in women's sports. Hello, folks, I'm Marcus, and today I'm alongside two folks, uh, both calling New York City home. We have our demographics analyst, Paola Flores-Marquez.

[00:00:40] Marcus Johnson: Welcome to the show.

[00:00:41] Paola Flores-Marquez: Hi, Marcus. Nice to see you again. Hello there. Hello.

[00:00:43] Marcus Johnson: You too. And principal forecasting writer, Ethan Cramer-Flood joins us.

[00:00:47] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Marcus, it's raining in New York, but it is warm and toasty and comfortable- Me too ... in our lovely new eMarketer studio. Yes. So we are-

[00:00:55] Marcus Johnson: Hello ... good to go.

[00:00:55] Paola Flores-Marquez: Shiny and new.

[00:00:56] Paola Flores-Marquez: All right.

[00:00:57] Marcus Johnson: Very nice. Very nice. Thank you to the production team for putting that together. Uh, okay. So former player and Indiana Fever play-by-play voice, Debbie Antonelli, coined the phrase Clarkonomics, a term used to outline the massive economic impact and revenue surge generated by basketball superstar in the making, uh, you, you could argue she is already, but whole career ahead of her, Caitlin Clark.

[00:01:23] Marcus Johnson: Um, so f- the first question, Ethan, I'll start with you. Caitlin Clark had a huge contribution to the WNBA her rookie year, 2024, uh, but remained sidelined with injury much of 2025. Uh, how much, uh, did that affect the league? Uh, and what kind of a surge do you think we can expect this year?

[00:01:43] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Uh, I think it affected the league not at all, uh, which is good news- Oh

[00:01:47] Ethan Cramer-Flood: uh, in the short term. Wow. Okay. Uh, and the, and the answer to your second part of your question is also positive, inasmuch as because she's back now, there will be even more of a surge. However, I will say that she cannot remain indefinitely injury-prone, right? This can't continue to happen again and again and again, because eventually those fans that turn out in droves and watch TV in droves will start to notice that all of those Indiana Fever games that are constantly on national TV- Don't feature the person that they're there to watch.

[00:02:16] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Um, so let's all keep our fingers crossed that, you know, she's able to stay healthy and continue on, because when she's in the court, she is a spectacular watch. I mean, it was up and her- Mm ... rookie year was up and down, but she made the All-Star team. She'll be on the national team. Mm-hmm. She's a great, great player.

[00:02:29] Ethan Cramer-Flood: She's going to get better. Um, the league itself is beyond any one person. The trajectory is just up, up, up. Attendance is great. Ratings are great. The new media deal is great. The new collective bargaining, uh, bargaining agreement is great. Thank God they got that done, so l- so that the, uh, season can actually happen.

[00:02:46] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Yes. Everything is trending in the right direction. Uh, you know, over time, if she, if she continues to not be available, that will probably have a, a, a constraining effect, a detrimental effect as compared to where it could have gone. Um, but so far- Yeah ... I mean, I, I don't think it mattered all that much at all, um, that, that she wasn't on the court last year.

[00:03:03] Ethan Cramer-Flood: I think things are still- Okay ... looking really, really good.

[00:03:06] Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Injuries matter more in the WNBA because the season's shorter, and so if you do get an injury that you're out for a month in the NBA or two, it's not that big of a deal. You can come back. In the WNBA, you might miss half the season- Yeah, more than half

[00:03:20] Marcus Johnson: potentially. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I was looking in what, into what happens when Caitlin Clark is no longer in versus when she isn't, and it seems like when she got injured, there was a drop, but actually the league did okay at the end. So WNBA viewership on ESPN platforms skyrocketed, skyrocketed 170% the year Caitlin joined the WNBA in 2024.

[00:03:39] Marcus Johnson: The following year, she played just half of the games before she got injured. The two weeks following her injury, viewership of nationally televised games fell 55%. According to USA Today, she remained out, uh, much of the rest, pretty much the rest of the season, but the viewership at the end of the year was, um, o- on par with what it was the previous year.

[00:03:57] Marcus Johnson: So it did recover. Um- Right. It's, it's still higher than the- Please ...

[00:04:01] Paola Flores-Marquez: pre-2024 levels, right? Is my understanding. Yes. So it's still a win. Yes, right around there. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's pretty clear that, I mean, the, the league did not collapse without her, so.

[00:04:09] Marcus Johnson: Yeah.

[00:04:10] Paola Flores-Marquez: Um- Yeah ... yeah, I wouldn't say, yeah, she's more of an accelerant than she is, like, a, a necessity, and I think she's unlocked a lot of viewership for people who otherwise would not have been interested.

[00:04:19] Marcus Johnson: Yeah. It's kind of surprising the league didn't collapse, though, b- but especially based on this stat I have here. I mean, there's a lot of players who've contributed to, to getting the league to where it is, but this stat here, um, I think, uh, indicates why the, you know, it potentially could have, uh, kind of caved in on itself.

[00:04:35] Marcus Johnson: Uh, Clark's economic impact on the WNBA. So Ryan Brewer, he's an associate professor of finance at Indiana University Columbus, an expert on valuations. He calculated that her economic impact on the WNBA was 26.5% of all WNBA economic activity in her 2024 rookie season, including revenue from merchandise, ticket sales, and TV, et cetera.

[00:04:58] Marcus Johnson: Well, you certainly couldn't get into

[00:05:00] Ethan Cramer-Flood: the games when Indiana, uh, came to New York. Um, I mean, you know, like the, you know- Yeah. Or went anywhere. Yeah, or, or went anywhere.

[00:05:07] Marcus Johnson: Yeah.

[00:05:08] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Um- Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's undeniable. She was a s- she was a singular- Character Phenomenon? She's a, uh, she's a phenomenon the likes of which the WNBA needed, the likes of which other sports have seen and have led to that accelerant, as Pal, as Pal said.

[00:05:24] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Um, but, you know, a- as with all other sports, I think, and other leagues that have these incredible superstars, you reach a level of maturation where you're gonna be fine without them. And so I, I mean- Mm-hmm ... I think the WNBA is getting to, or has already gotten to, or will get to the point where, you know, no one is absolutely vital.

[00:05:41] Ethan Cramer-Flood: She's super fun to watch, you know? And so, like, when she's not on the court, th- there's, it's not as fun because she has a game, a Steph Curry-esque game that is incredibly- Yeah ... exciting, and she's more famous than everybody else. But I mean, you know, we did fi- I, the, you know, the real problem last year is that the New York Liberty did not defend their championship.

[00:05:56] Ethan Cramer-Flood: I mean, that's, you know, that's probably why people weren't watching- ... is that New York wasn't as good, right? I mean, who wants to watch- Clearly, if New York's not doing it, then no one else is doing it. Who wants to watch Las Vegas all the time? Like, we wanna watch the Liberty, and they're stacked, and this year they're gonna be back at the top.

[00:06:08] Ethan Cramer-Flood: And, uh, and then I think everything will be fine, and we'll forget about that, that team in the Midwest. I

[00:06:12] Paola Flores-Marquez: mean, I think it's also delving into, like, uh, this sudden desire amongst Gen Z, not sudden, but, like, growing desire amongst Gen Z to, like, for third spaces, right? To do things in person, and I think that the, all this tension, uh, not just from men, but from women too, who are just kind of like, "Well, what are we doing?

[00:06:29] Paola Flores-Marquez: Well, we should go to a game, and let's just go hang out and support the girls." Mm-hmm. And, like, I think that it's a combination, right? Of, like, the Caitlyn, Caitlyn Clark effect and, um, this desire for what was once affordable, and it's increasingly less affordable- Mm-hmm ... um, as an activity. Yeah. But the option is there.

[00:06:48] Paola Flores-Marquez: It is part of it.

[00:06:49] Ethan Cramer-Flood: And we'll talk a little later about it's, it's not just basketball, right? So, like the- Right ... Women's Hockey League, the Women's Soccer League- Mm ... they're, they have not yet achieved the, the media success in terms of the TV deals that the WNBA has, but man, are they getting crowds. You know, people are packed tens of thousands- Yes

[00:07:07] Ethan Cramer-Flood: millions, ultimately- Especially with hockey ... over the course of the season- Mm ... uh, are going to those games as well. And we'll, we'll get into, we'll get into- Yeah ... o- other sports a little bit later, but I, I think that's- Yeah ... actually your point. And, you know, actually, you don't have to go either. I mean, this is also a sit around the couch- Mm-hmm

[00:07:19] Ethan Cramer-Flood: or, or at a bar type of event. Mm-hmm. Uh, which becomes- Yeah ... possible because the games are on, at least the basketball games are on everywhere all the time now, if you can find them. Right. Yeah. They are on.

[00:07:30] Paola Flores-Marquez: I think, yeah, barriers to viewing have been a major detractor for a while.

[00:07:35] Marcus Johnson: Yeah And we're seeing those numbers go up.

[00:07:37] Marcus Johnson: Uh, your team, Ethan, forecasting women's live sports viewers, um, it grew-- I mean, this speaks to the impact that she, she had. Uh, s- it grew 64- 65% the year that she entered the league. Um, so it went from, uh, 2.7 million women's live sports viewers, 2.7 to 4.5. Um, we think it's gonna slow down, but it is still ticking up.

[00:08:00] Marcus Johnson: And with the some of the le- all those other leagues coming on, you could easily see another surge, um, in that number. Last thing I wanna say quickly about her impact, uh, just this is astonishing as well. K- she increased the value of the Fever, that her team she plays for, by nearly 300%. So digital content and media platform SportsCo pegged the value of the Fever, the franchise, at 90 million, nine zero, uh, slightly below the estimated league average before, uh, but when she joined the team, uh, it's closer to 340 million basically overnight.

[00:08:30] Marcus Johnson: That's

[00:08:30] Paola Flores-Marquez: so much pressure.

[00:08:31] Ethan Cramer-Flood: So th- the other day, I saw an ad with Sophie Cunningham in the ad. Mm. And I was like, "Sophie Cunningham has an ad?" Like, what? Like, she basically gets a national TV ad because she's on the same team as Caitlin Clark. Yeah. So

[00:08:45] Marcus Johnson: she

[00:08:46] Ethan Cramer-Flood: plays for the, she plays

[00:08:47] Marcus Johnson: for the Fever. She's a- She's- I guess she's the

[00:08:48] Ethan Cramer-Flood: starting- She's okay.

[00:08:49] Ethan Cramer-Flood: She's okay ... uh,

[00:08:50] Marcus Johnson: forward. But, uh- Yeah ... you know,

[00:08:51] Ethan Cramer-Flood: she's, but she's been in the league 10 years. You know? She has, yeah. I've never seen her in an ad before. No, she wasn't in an ad- Like, you get an ad because you stand next to- ... until she was in Phoenix. Mm-hmm. Like, that's a superstar. Yeah. The, the people- Yeah ... who stand next to the superstar get to, get to have national TV ads.

[00:09:03] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Yeah.

[00:09:04] Paola Flores-Marquez: Also, because, like, it's not just that because, like, they stand next to her, but I think because it's her, the other people are able to be savvier about who they're, who's working for them, right? They're able to hire better agents, and then it- Mm-hmm ... like, builds more momentum because they get those spots, right?

[00:09:18] Paola Flores-Marquez: And it just creates more hype, and it just becomes- Yeah ... this massive machine- For sure ... which would not- Mm ... have existed without her. For sure. Yeah, yeah.

[00:09:24] Ethan Cramer-Flood: But you ride those. Yeah. You ride those coattails

[00:09:25] Marcus Johnson: if you

[00:09:25] Ethan Cramer-Flood: can.

[00:09:26] Paola Flores-Marquez: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:26] Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Rising tide. Um, so I wanna talk a bit more about, uh, the Caitlin Clark effect, the concept, what went into that.

[00:09:33] Marcus Johnson: But I really wanna, um, uh, quickly, uh, dive into something, uh, Ethan, you mentioned, which is the new, the new rights deal that they have. Yeah. So on March, uh, ESPN asked, quoting, noting that, "17 months after the WNBA players opted out of their collective bargaining agreement, CBA, with the league, and after months of intense negotiations, including a marathon 100 hours of in-person sessions in the final week, the WNBA and Players Association signed a new landmark deal that kicked in before the start of the 2026 season."

[00:09:59] Marcus Johnson: Uh, it's the league's 30th year. Um, um, yeah, Ethan, what stands out to you the most about the new WNBA, uh, media deal? Yeah.

[00:10:06] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Uh, the number 216 is what stands out the most. According to The Athletic article in front of me here, quoting from them that, "216 games will be on the equivalent of national TV this year."

[00:10:19] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Uh, that's a really big number. Mm. The-- So there's 15 teams in the league. They play 44 games a year. Quick math suggests that that means, you know, well more than half of every WNBA game is gonna be on- Something. I don't know if we use- Wow ... the term national TV anymore because- ... I don't know what TV is anymore.

[00:10:34] Ethan Cramer-Flood: But between all of their eight different- Substantial ... uh, media partners, and that's not mocking them, that every sports league is doing this now. But whether- Mm-hmm ... it's NBC or Amazon or Peacock or regular TV or various networks, they're on, they're on ABC and ESPN, they're on, uh, USA I think now, and they're on ION.

[00:10:51] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Um, just an absolutely stunningly enormous percentage of the total amount of games will theoretically be findable. If you're up for doing that effort, you can find tons and tons of games. And by contrast, you know, the, the, that is a far larger percentage of games than the NBA would have on national TV.

[00:11:08] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Now, the NBA teams are more likely to have regional sports networks. Oh, wow. So, like, NBA games are on in your town if you wanna see your team. But on a national level, uh, the WNBA has a higher share now of their games- Yeah, that's a great point ... that are gonna be available. Again, if you can find them, and this is the t- this is actually, Paolo and I were chatting about this before the podcast started.

[00:11:25] Ethan Cramer-Flood: It's like, good luck figuring out where, like, any g- Where and when ... any given night. Yeah. You know, if you actually want to do this, you, it's, it's the same challenge in, you know, baseball, the NBA. Yeah. They're all like this. But anyway- Yeah ... that, that's just, that's a stun- the, the availability is unquestionable now, right?

[00:11:39] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Yeah. The

[00:11:39] Marcus Johnson: access is there. And that's, I mean, that's right. Now, the WNBA will add more games, uh, additional ad opportunities next year. 2026 season stays at 44, but they're expanding to 50 by 2027, 52 from 2029 onwards.

[00:11:54] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Should also mention that all 44 Indiana games are on national TV this year. S- Every single game

[00:12:00] Ethan Cramer-Flood: s- So I hope she shows up. Fair. I hope she's playing. Uh. Uh, most, most- Uh ... of the Liberty game are, too, by the way.

[00:12:05] Paola Flores-Marquez: Nice.

[00:12:06] Ethan Cramer-Flood: That's

[00:12:06] Marcus Johnson: true.

[00:12:06] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Paolo, how about for you?

[00:12:07] Paola Flores-Marquez: Uh, I think this is a pretty strong stance in declaring it as, like, a must-have content, right? Or as opposed to would've been, like, just nice to have. And so it shows- Mm-hmm

[00:12:15] Paola Flores-Marquez: major investment, um, and it shows the major level of belief that this is, like, the next generation of sports viewing. Um, which makes sense because there's so much room for growth f- compared to others. Um, but yeah. Yeah. I think that, I think a key thing to keep in mind here is that they're not paying for what the, the WNBA is, but they're paying for what it is becoming.

[00:12:35] Paola Flores-Marquez: And so- Yes ... it's not guaranteed.

[00:12:37] Marcus Johnson: Yes, yeah. Um, it's nicely worked out into contract. It's not like it's set for 10 years and doesn't matter about the viewership. It, th- they are reviewing it every couple of years. The viewership goes up. Um, there, there are escalators in there which, which kick things up. Two of the things that jumped out to me as well, um, other things, were the players obviously getting paid more.

[00:12:54] Marcus Johnson: So the average salary will be around 600 grand. That's still low con- but it's a hund- it's up from 120 last year, so, um, staggering, uh, growth there. Minimum salary, uh, will cross the, um, 300K mark. That's up from 66,000 Last year, uh, the Supermax will start at 1.4 million, was 250,000 last year, and, uh, the revenue sharing, uh, in the NBA is basically 50/50.

[00:13:25] Marcus Johnson: Uh, it was 91 to the, uh, uh, owners, nine to the players. It's now 80/20. They were doing it for the love of the game. Like So improvements across the board. Yeah, right. Improvements across the board, but still a long way to go. Um, the other thing as well I thought was interesting is that they're adding new teams.

[00:13:40] Marcus Johnson: Yep. It's not just more games every year, but adding new teams. Toronto Tempo and Portland Fire have joined the league, uh, for this 2026 season, followed by franchises to come in Cleveland 2028, Detroit 2029, Philadelphia 2030, bringing the league to a record 18 teams. And you can see them adding new teams quite quickly after that because there are a lot of major cities.

[00:13:58] Marcus Johnson: Went and looked at the major cities that don't have one: Houston, Boston, Miami, Denver, San Diego, Pittsburgh, KC, et cetera. So

[00:14:04] Ethan Cramer-Flood: And the, the expansion teams also just get absolutely banger attendance. The energy is real. Mm-hmm. And then you see that in the valuations as well, right? I don't have those numbers in front of me, but it was only maybe five years ago that a WNBA expansion team required, you know, a $5 million investment.

[00:14:20] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Then all of a sudden it was $50 million, and now it's like $250 million. And this is all happening over the course of just a few years. Uh- Yeah ... so get in while the getting's good. If you're a rich guy right now- ... uh, now is your chance, because pretty soon you're not gonna be able to, to get on this train.

[00:14:34] Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Um, the Caitlin Clark effect. So there's this phenomenon, um, around just the popularity, uh, from this one individual and the effect that they've had on, on various dis element- different elements of, of life it seems. Um, so I wanted to talk a bit about, about that. It's, um, yeah, it's driven the surge in popularity in women's basketball because of Caitlin.

[00:14:55] Marcus Johnson: Um, Pau, what do you make of this concept? What conditions do you think, what do you think goes into creating this Caitlin Clark effect?

[00:15:00] Paola Flores-Marquez: I think we're seeing the level of investment that it requires to f- like, help more stars flourish, right? Like, I could think about the NBA and I think of all the generational stars that I've seen in my lifetime, and like, I, I absolutely think it's replicable.

[00:15:13] Paola Flores-Marquez: I just think they haven't had the resources to do so. Um- Mm-hmm ... and I'm really excited to see who else pops up. But I can't- Yeah ... name names. I'm not good at that- Yeah ... so I'll let Ethan name names- Yeah ... as to who he thinks is next.

[00:15:25] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Well, uh, but- Yeah ... I mean, it's her- Ethan, what goes into it, though? Yeah ... her own existence is vital to the continuation- Yes

[00:15:31] Ethan Cramer-Flood: of this storyline because now she's the role model. And- Mm-hmm ... and she's a role model to a much wider scale of the population. There had-- She had her own role models in college bask- women's college basketball and in the WNBA. Lots of trailblazers over the past 30 years who have come before her that she knew about, but maybe not as many other people knew about.

[00:15:51] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Mm-hmm. So now you've got this wide angle- role model in her. Mm-hmm. So the next kid, we don't know. Of course, we don't know who this 12-year-old is. Right. They could be anywhere. But now you have people- Um- ... like

[00:16:00] Paola Flores-Marquez: scouting for them, right? Yeah. You have more greater investment in, like women who-- I mean, they are doing it for the love of the game, as we said earlier.

[00:16:05] Paola Flores-Marquez: But like they, there's also that potential that this could be- Mm-hmm ... like a very viable career for me if I invest well enough and- Yeah ... yeah, I think, yeah, it's the training, it's the scouting, it's the, um, like individual commitment and yeah, it's the- Well, and

[00:16:18] Ethan Cramer-Flood: then other people will invest in you- Yes ... I think, which is your point- Yeah

[00:16:21] Ethan Cramer-Flood: or whoever this 12-year-old is- Yeah, as- ... or this 17-year-old ...

[00:16:23] Paola Flores-Marquez: as cousins who have tried to be professional football players- Yeah ... or, I'm sorry, professional soccer players. Yes. Yeah.

[00:16:28] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Yeah, exactly. You need, you need that- It is expensive ... support around you. And then you-- I mean, this is already happening at the NCAA level, right, where women's basketball is tremendously successful, and there are plenty of schools out there throwing millions and millions of dollars at their women's program, which is great.

[00:16:40] Ethan Cramer-Flood: But there's also plenty that aren't. And so, you know, there's, there's room for, uh, improvement and expansion there. And unfortunately, for better or for worse, if you see dollar signs in people's eyes, uh, that can help- Yeah ... move this along, and then all of a sudden these people, the next Caitlin Clark or the next 10 Caitlin Clarks suddenly have a chance to appear.

[00:16:57] Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I am not sure that we'll see another Caitlin Clark.

[00:17:02] Paola Flores-Marquez: Ooh. And so

[00:17:03] Marcus Johnson: there's-- Yeah, so here's my-- We might have-- I mean, we've got a lot of, like Juju Watkins. Like there are a lot of other stars, people who just came into the league like Paige Bueckers, uh, Angel Reese, obviously. But I don't know if we're gonna see another one.

[00:17:13] Marcus Johnson: Here's, here's, here's why I think that. I also set the, the s- the table by saying she's not incredibly, like, she's not overly charismatic. You know, she's not like a Magic Johnson smiling all the time, you know? She's not like a big personality. She's quite reserved. She's quite quiet. Um, she's not, you know, terribly flashy or-- So it's quite interesting that all of this stuff has, has kind of happened from, um, quite a normal person.

[00:17:37] Marcus Johnson: Uh- I disa- I disagree with the

[00:17:38] Ethan Cramer-Flood: flashy stuff on the court, or maybe you mean in her personal- On the court ... in her personal life. On

[00:17:41] Marcus Johnson: the court. Yeah. But in her personal life- In her personal life, she's

[00:17:43] Ethan Cramer-Flood: perfectly dull ... yeah,

[00:17:44] Marcus Johnson: on the court she might be the most, yeah. Um, but I think, uh, there's a few things that have kind of gone into creating, uh, this Ca- Caitlin Clark effect.

[00:17:52] Marcus Johnson: One of them is, uh, the logo threes. We saw them from Steph Curry, uh, and she's done that. So, um, you know, we're not gonna see someone else do that 'cause it's, we've already seen it. The other thing is the high-- She's got the highlight passing of like a LeBron James. Um, she's got the fast-paced play of like a Showtime Lakers.

[00:18:08] Marcus Johnson: Uh, she, she came into the league with Angel Reese, and there was this rivalry that happened in college, and it's similar to the Magic-Bird rivalry, um, that, um, made, you know, the Lakers and, uh, Celtics franchises, um, even more popular than they were. Um, uh, and they would-- I mean, Caitlin Cl- Caitlin Clark in, in college was chasing records, so she was a huge star.

[00:18:26] Marcus Johnson: She w- you know, most, uh, career points from a W- uh, NCAA women's basketball, uh, uh, player. Uh, Angel Reese left winning, uh, first title for LSU, so huge rivalry there. Uh, she's kind of trash-- talks trash like a Luka Doncic. Like she's so many things, players, and, um, like, uh, storylines wrapped up into one person.

[00:18:46] Marcus Johnson: I don't know if we're gonna see that again. And- Yeah ... on top of that The NBA was pri— The WNBA was primed for this to ha- Like, the s- the stage was perfectly set- Marcus ... and there's all

[00:18:58] Ethan Cramer-Flood: these different... Tell me. You know, I s- I said it was raining here, and now- Yes ... apparently it's raining where you are also.

[00:19:03] Ethan Cramer-Flood: I mean, come on. Well, it's r- Come on.

[00:19:05] Paola Flores-Marquez: Yeah, you're so pessimistic about this. I think the, I think we- This is not how sports

[00:19:08] Ethan Cramer-Flood: work.

[00:19:09] Paola Flores-Marquez: No. I think people have way more eyes on it now, which means that they're paying more attention to these players, which means more opportunities for these things to stand out, and, like, this confluence of, I don't know, environmental factors.

[00:19:18] Paola Flores-Marquez: I don't know. It's,

[00:19:19] Ethan Cramer-Flood: it's like if, if someone had, uh, uh... You sound like someone in 1986 who's like, "We're never gonna get another, m- uh, Magic and Bird." You know? Uh, th- this is the peak of the NBA, you know? Meanwhile, Michael Jordan's right there, but we don't know. You know? Like, it's... And LeBron and stuff, and like- But I think these players

[00:19:34] Marcus Johnson: come, they come, well, they come along once in a, in a bl- I mean, Jordan was the face of the league the whole time.

[00:19:39] Marcus Johnson: Then you had, um, I mean, you had a bit of Kobe. But then you had LeBron. These people, they're generational talents. They only come on once in a while. Oh, okay. Okay. I think Victor Wembanyama is now that person. Okay, so you're saying we won't have another Caitlin Clark- So we're, we're- ... in the immediate future

[00:19:49] Marcus Johnson: this year. Yeah. Okay. I, yes, I agree. No, I think in the next... Yeah, I think in the next... This year. Well, not in the immediate future. I think in the next 10, 15, or 30, 'cause, I mean- Well, it's, it's still her job.

[00:19:57] Ethan Cramer-Flood: She's the next... She's gotta be Caitlin Clark for a while, like, first of all. She does, yeah. First of all, they need- Yeah.

[00:20:01] Ethan Cramer-Flood: I just- ... she needs to win some more games.

[00:20:02] Paola Flores-Marquez: She needs to f- establish her legacy, like, firmly. But then also, that gives her the opportunity to pass it on, should she choose, right? To s- her successor eventually. Mm-hmm. And I think that continues that.

[00:20:12] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Yeah. I, I, I take your point, Marcus- Yeah ... that, like, right. Uh, uh, uh, for the next five years, I mean, she has to do it.

[00:20:17] Ethan Cramer-Flood: It has to be her. They haven't even been, Indiana hasn't been very good. Angel Reese has been, uh, she hasn't won any games at all. Well, last year they were the last four. Like- Well, last year they got to the semis ... they got to the semis- So last year they did, and without her ... with, without her, without her. But the year before that- Yeah

[00:20:28] Ethan Cramer-Flood: they were basically 500. But she needs to start playing for championships. Yes. And her rivals do, too, right? There's n- not gonna be a legendary rivalry with Angel Reese for much longer if she never wins any games either. So, like, they're- Mm-hmm ... totally being outshone by the existing veterans, Liberty- ... uh, as well as that other team in Las Vegas.

[00:20:45] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Uh, and you know, A'ja Wilson, we haven't even mentioned the actual best player. Right? So- Yeah ... so, uh, all of this will come to fruition, uh, much, much better if she actually starts winning championships, and then we can start to talk about who the next person is gonna be. I mean, you're, you're jumping the

[00:20:57] Marcus Johnson: gun here.

[00:20:58] Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm. Come on. I think there will be a next person. I just don't think we're gonna see this type of gr- Like, we had four ti- four X the number of people who watched the draft that she was in than the year before. The valuation of the team that, you know, has gone up 300%. We, we expect growth in women's live view- viewerships, uh, uh, live sports to go up 65% the year she came in, and then we kind of almost drop off a cliff the year after.

[00:21:20] Marcus Johnson: So I think there might be people, but to have this person... And then also, to give credit where, um, where credit's due for the, the league was primed for this. You had a three-time MVP, uh, A'ja Wilson, who had led the La- Las Vegas Aces to back-to-back championships. Um, you had, uh, Brittney Griner, who returned back- Oh, yeah

[00:21:38] Marcus Johnson: in 2023 from being detained in Russia, so a lot of eyes were on that story. You had rising star Aaliyah Boston coming into the league. You had Sabrina Ionescu competing against Steph Curry in the first NBA versus WNBA three p- point competition. So I just think there are a lo- a confluence of factors which it was gonna be hard to replicate to see that level of, um, ascendance for one person.

[00:21:58] Marcus Johnson: But maybe it will be replicable, and maybe it will be in other sports. I wanna talk about that for a second. Um, Ethan, w- what's next? Uh, you know, w- is this replicable? What will be the ne- in, in a different sport- Right ... what will be the next breakout women's sport or star, you would think? Yeah, you, you, that

[00:22:13] Ethan Cramer-Flood: was a challenging-- You fed us that question before we started, and that was, that was a, a challenging one because of...

[00:22:19] Ethan Cramer-Flood: So I mean, the answer I should give is someone like Trinity Rodman playing, you know, women's soccer. Mm. Yeah. Uh, that's, that would be the sort of conventional wisdom, right? They, she's so, she's such a generational talent that they literally changed the rules of the pay structure to prevent her from going over to Europe.

[00:22:36] Ethan Cramer-Flood: So you, you can't get, you can't get any more- Right ... evidence than that, that, like, the entire league shifts around you because you are, are so unique. So she would be the answer. But of course, the challenge is that in, you know, in this country, um, you know, soccer has a harder time. Uh, you know, the, the WNBA is in the best possible position for this kind of thing to happen because we, we, we love our basketball here.

[00:22:58] Ethan Cramer-Flood: We love our, and we love our, uh, our, you know, men's football, NFL football even more. That's, that's, that's not a sport where there's a com- a competitive league with women yet. But basketball is gonna have an advantage. So you've got this tremendous success is already happening with the Women's Hockey League.

[00:23:12] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Uh, Women's Soccer League is, a- already has succeeded, right? They've already proved to be sustainable. They're on that same expansion level that bask- uh, that basketball is. They're signing new media deals. They're getting expansion teams. The crowds are overflowing everywhere. But those sports just aren't as popular as basketball.

[00:23:30] Ethan Cramer-Flood: So, you know, I don't know that there's going to be something else quite like this at all. So it's more about the aggregate story, the general storyline- Mm ... of women's sports. They're all- Mm ... coming up. The boat is rising all across the board. It's gonna be at different levels because people have different degrees of passion for different sports in this country.

[00:23:47] Ethan Cramer-Flood: And, and you know- Yeah ... that, that, uh, and the Women's Soccer League had problems because it was, it was doing so well, and there's all this talent, and, like, the players were ju- are leaving for Europe You know, it's, it's the reverse of what happens in basketball where the best basketball players in Europe leave and come here.

[00:24:00] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Mm-hmm. Our best soccer players just leave. So that's gonna be- That makes it hard for, for, you know, the local league to ever sort of really make that leap. But they're, they're doing it. Yeah. I mean, the money's there, the media deals are there, it's on TV. It's just a slightly lower level than what the WNBA is at, but the growth is, is monumental.

[00:24:16] Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Um, Paola, before I jump in- No, mm-mm ... did you wanna- Pass. No. Okay. All right, cool. Uh, well, so I've got one as well. Uh, so, uh, I think that's a great one. Trinity Rodman is a, a fantastic one. I don't know a lot about her, but doing some research, learned a bit more recently. Um, the other one I had was, um, the new women's ice hockey league.

[00:24:32] Marcus Johnson: Yeah. So, uh, the PWHL, Professional Women's Hockey League, launched in 2024. Started as six teams, it's already expanded to eight. And there are a few reasons I think this could be, um, one to watch. One, it's backed by Mark, Mark Walter. So he's the billionaire who owns the LA Dodgers team, uh, majority owner in the Lakers, uh, NBA team.

[00:24:50] Marcus Johnson: He's an investor in, in Chelsea Soccer Club, uh, WNBA, uh, um, team, LA Sparks. So l- uh, $7 billion, lots of money. I think, um, that's one driving factor. Number two, uh, they're kind of riding the recent wave of interest in women's ice hockey, uh, from the 2026, uh, Winter Olympics in Milan where the US defeated Canada 2-1 in overtime to win the gold medal.

[00:25:11] Marcus Johnson: Uh- Uh, number three... Please.

[00:25:13] Paola Flores-Marquez: I'm sorry. Tell me. Heated rivalry. Heated rivalry is a

[00:25:16] Marcus Johnson: thing. You can't tell me there isn't something- Everyone's talking about- Not, not actually- ... in

[00:25:21] Paola Flores-Marquez: there that boosted interest- That's, that's a nice skip ... in hockey, okay? Not a- Not actually featuring

[00:25:26] Ethan Cramer-Flood: women's hockey players- Wait Listen

[00:25:27] Ethan Cramer-Flood: but, uh, perhaps

[00:25:28] Paola Flores-Marquez: quite a few viewers. That was, that was- As we said, a rising tide.

[00:25:31] Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, that's a really good point in- Yeah. Um, uh, Drive to Survive. Shows that are on about a sport can at the time, if, if your sport's surging, it can, it can really help, so I think that's a great, that's a great point.

[00:25:45] Marcus Johnson: Um, it just surpassed, so, uh, Ethan kind of referenced this earlier in terms of, um, people, like attendance. Mm-hmm. Um, it, it really j- Uh, they just surpassed the, uh, the, the hockey, women's hockey, uh, one million single season- Yeah ... attendees for the first time. And like I said, this, this started a couple of years ago.

[00:26:03] Marcus Johnson: Uh, so, um, uh, Pat, uh, Laprade of the, the Hockey News noting that the average attendance in the three years the league has existed has grown from 5,500 to 7,500 to over 9,000 people per game in just a couple of years. Um, and then lastly, the, the past season, the PWHL set a US attendance record for women's ice hockey when a sold-out crowd of 18,000 fans watched the New York Sirens host the Seattle Torrance at Madison Square Garden.

[00:26:31] Paola Flores-Marquez: Hockey's just fun. Like, you don't really have to understand it. You just, like, watch a bunch of people, like, get rough with each other on the ice and do things you could never do. Yeah. And yeah, it's one... It's a great sport regardless of who's playing. Yeah. And I can't believe it's taken this long.

[00:26:43] Marcus Johnson: I know, I know.

[00:26:43] Marcus Johnson: And I think Abby Murphy, so I was doing a bit of digging in terms who might be the breakout star. Uh, 20- A lot of, quite a few people to choose from, but Abby Murphy was the one for me. 24-year-old American ice hockey forward- She's known for quite an aggressive style, and also some electric, um, skills. If you Google Abby Murphy assist, she, it, uh, it's insane.

[00:27:04] Marcus Johnson: Just go, just go YouTube that. Can we play that now? She's a- Can, can we put that in the podcast? She, can we get the rights to this? Yeah. I wish, yeah. If we had that kind of money. Could you, can

[00:27:11] Paola Flores-Marquez: the team- Just do a thing out of Hearts ... come up with, like, a recreation of it in diagrams- Yeah ... so that we can play that?

[00:27:16] Paola Flores-Marquez: Maybe we

[00:27:16] Marcus Johnson: can. Uh, Lance, uh, uh, John, if you can get on that. Uh, so she's been a star forward for University of Minnesota. She's already a 2026 Olympic gold medalist, 2022 Olympic silver medalist, two-time IIHF World Championship gold medalist, uh, t- with Team USA. And, um, she's gonna, uh, I think enter the draft for the Women's Hockey League this year.

[00:27:35] Marcus Johnson: I think- So I think Abby Murphy could be one to watch ... I

[00:27:37] Ethan Cramer-Flood: mean, they, they haven't figured out the magic that every league needs to figure out, which is that the New York Sirens need to be better. They're, like, at the bottom of the league every time I check. So until they get good- Good ... I don't, I don't see how, why- Mm

[00:27:47] Ethan Cramer-Flood: why anyone would pay attention. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Uh, I wanna go to a Sirens game. But

[00:27:53] Paola Flores-Marquez: are the, are the tickets still cheap? They probably are. All right. Well, there you go.

[00:27:58] Marcus Johnson: Uh, let's end with this, uh, gang. So, um, talked a lot about, um, the growth of just women's sports i- in general. So, uh, Paola, I'll start with you.

[00:28:07] Marcus Johnson: H- how are marketers capitalizing, or should they be capitalizing, on the surge of popularity in women's sports, uh, and how do they make sure they don't get left behind?

[00:28:15] Paola Flores-Marquez: I think part of it is you have to understand that the way in which younger generations consume media has changed so drastically. I think that- Yeah

[00:28:24] Paola Flores-Marquez: it's not... People keep repeating and saying that younger generations don't, um, don't wanna watch sports. There's less interest, blah, blah, blah. That's not true. People have the same amount of interest in sports, but they're not consuming it in the same way that previous generations did, which means that they're probably not sitting down and watching the entire game.

[00:28:41] Paola Flores-Marquez: They're consuming it in bite-sized pieces. And so you- Mm-hmm ... kinda have to understand that the packaging comes that way, and that the game is gonna be interpreted that way, and you have to lean into that. Um-

[00:28:51] Marcus Johnson: Yeah. That's a great point. Yeah. The highlights part. That's another reason I thought that Kayla, uh, Kaitlyn had kinda taken off, is a lot of her play, her style of play, lends itself very well to highlights, um, which, as shown on social media, on SportsCenter- Mm-hmm

[00:29:02] Marcus Johnson: things like that, and people are just watching the games differently.

[00:29:05] Paola Flores-Marquez: Yeah, and I think that, uh, you can't underplay the value of the social aspect of it as well, right? Like- Mm-hmm ... people want to be in the know when something exciting is happening, and I mean, uh, we joked about Heated Rivalry, but, like, I definitely...

[00:29:17] Paola Flores-Marquez: I got more, um, content on women's hockey because I was getting hockey stuff in general because I was looking at clips of the show. Mm. Nice. So, like, um, you can use the algorithm to your advantage when it comes to things that, like, lean into it, right? Yep. Um, so I think, yeah- Yeah ... that balance between, like, pop culture and socialization and wanting to be in the know, and then just people's attention spans are just so, so much smaller.

[00:29:38] Paola Flores-Marquez: So just- Yeah ... be aware of that.

[00:29:40] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Yeah. Uh, great points. Mm. Ethan, how about for you? I mean, uh, to me, it's like this is, this is new content. It's either new content or newly popular content where there's an opportunity to get in- either at the ground floor or relatively close to the ground floor on a ship that is rising incredibly quickly.

[00:29:56] Ethan Cramer-Flood: So, y- I mean, it's almost too late with Caitlin Clark, right? You can't afford her in your ad, but there are plenty of other up-and-coming rising stars or existing stars in the WNBA that you can afford. But there's also- Yeah ... these entire other leagues, right? That, I mean, the, the soccer league has new and creative media deals.

[00:30:13] Ethan Cramer-Flood: There are entirely new streaming... Uh, the hockey, uh, the hockey league streams its, uh, games on YouTube. And, uh, the soccer league has its own streaming app. Uh, the, the- Yeah ... I, I saw an article that the... You mentioned Portland was one of the expansion teams for the WNBA. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's an entirely new, uh, TV network, women's sports-centric, traditional TV over-the-air broadcast network in Portland combining, uh, the, the soccer teams' games and the WNBA teams' games.

[00:30:44] Ethan Cramer-Flood: This is all this creative new space, right? If you- Mm-hmm ... if, if you can... This is, there's an opportunity here to get in with this, uh, that would be very challenging otherwise. And, and you can take a look at the growth w- we've... You can take a look at our, uh, forecasts for women's sports viewership, or you can take a look at basically any other forecast in the world, and you're just gonna see these lines going straight up.

[00:31:03] Ethan Cramer-Flood: So it seems to me that now is the time to form those relationships, uh, while you can- Yeah ... before, you know, before it's, you can't afford it anymore.

[00:31:10] Paola Flores-Marquez: Yeah. What I'm also hearing is that so much of it is so fragmented, and we were talking about this earlier, about how people don't get their news in the same way.

[00:31:17] Paola Flores-Marquez: They don't get their information in the same way anymore. And so whoever can fill that gap, where they can sort of create whatever the new version of a TV guide is for sports, and, like, where to find it- Yeah ... and when to find it, like, is gonna benefit- Oh, my God ... incredibly from that. So- Yeah, we all need that help Yeah

[00:31:32] Paola Flores-Marquez: there's a free idea for you- ... for all our listeners. This is why you should tune in. I'm like-

[00:31:36] Ethan Cramer-Flood: I'm trying to be... I'm like, I try, I wanna be a good Liberty fan, but I... And, and I know their games are on somewhere- Oh, me too ... but I miss them a lot because I don't know where the games are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we're all in the same

[00:31:44] Marcus Johnson: position.

[00:31:46] Marcus Johnson: Um, it's a great point. Those are all great points. Uh, the two that I had, uh, uh, ba- basically the ones that you had. One, get involved now 'cause it's gonna get more expensive, the sponsorship that is, uh, very quickly. Uh, and then the second one was, uh, touching on, uh, what, uh, Powell was saying about the social media part of it.

[00:32:02] Marcus Johnson: Um, building campaigns around athletes, not just the teams. And I went and looked, Caitlin Clark has four times as many Instagram followers as her own team's account. Yep. The Indiana Fever. Mm. If she, if Caitlin Clark went to the NBA this season, um, she'd almost crack the top 25 in terms of players with the most Instagram followers.

[00:32:21] Ethan Cramer-Flood: Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, that almost- Mm-hmm ... that almost crosses all sports, right? It's about players now first. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then teams. Mm-hmm. You know. Yeah. Unless you're in New York, of course, in which case- By the way, shout out, uh-

[00:32:33] Paola Flores-Marquez: In which ca- Ellie the Elephant is the true star of the show Yeah, exactly.

[00:32:35] Paola Flores-Marquez: It's

[00:32:35] Ethan Cramer-Flood: about, it's about your, it's entirely about your jersey, not about your name. Uh, I haven't shouted out FC Gotham, by the way, even though they play- Oh, yeah ... in New Jersey, but they, they've won two championships, uh- We

[00:32:44] Paola Flores-Marquez: claim them ... recently, so. Yeah, they're New Yorkers.

[00:32:46] Marcus Johnson: Turn this into the

[00:32:46] Ethan Cramer-Flood: New

[00:32:46] Marcus Johnson: York Sports-

[00:32:48] Marcus Johnson: themed podcast. This is what you get for

[00:32:49] Paola Flores-Marquez: not being here with us, okay? You need to come visit. Incredible. Yeah,

[00:32:52] Marcus Johnson: I know. And I know Stuart's got no problems with it whatsoever, as a New York fan himself. Uh, so we'll probably keep it in, even though I would cut it out. That's all we've got time for for today's episode.

[00:33:01] Marcus Johnson: Uh, next, uh, yeah, we'll hopefully see you for, for, um, i- in the game next month. And thank you so much to, uh, Lance, um, I think Michael. Oh, no, Luigi. Michael wasn't there. Uh, John, Stuart who runs the team, uh, the, the whole production crew, uh, helping us out with this one. And thanks of course to my guest. Thank you to Paola.

[00:33:18] Paola Flores-Marquez: Thank you so much. This was so much more fun than I thought it would be. Oh, man. Listen, okay. Thanks. What did

[00:33:22] Marcus Johnson: you think

[00:33:22] Paola Flores-Marquez: was gonna happen? I prepped a lot. I was very nervous. I don't know, I don't know extensively about sports more than, like, to do my job. So this was actually really, really enjoyable, and I think I might watch more now.

[00:33:33] Paola Flores-Marquez: There you go. So.

[00:33:35] Marcus Johnson: Uh, thank you to Ethan. Yeah, man, I g- I gotta go watch this game. I'll see you later, Marcus. And of course, thank you to everyone for listening to In the Game: An eMarketer Sports Marketing Podcast.