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Rob Rubin (00:00):

Consumers skip ads, but they don't skip rewards. Fetch drives performance with over 12 and a half million monthly active users, and over 11 and a half million receipts scanned daily, capturing 88% of household spend. Your brand becomes the reward, earning real engagement, verified purchases, and loyalty. Fetch: America's Rewards app, where brands are the center of joy.

(00:32):

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Banking and Payments Show, an eMarketer podcast made possible by Fetch Rewards. Today is October 14th, 2025. I'm Rob Rubin, head of business development at eMarketer, and your host. Today we're talking about something big, the New American Dream. The classic idea of the American dream, homeownership, a steady job, a college education, a comfortable retirement, is shifting. Costs are up, values are changing, and priorities look different for Gen Z and Millennials than for Boomers and even Gen X.

(01:10):

To unpack this, I'm joined by Jeremy Goldman, who covers marketing and retail trends, and Paola Flores-Marquez, who analyzes demographic and consumer behavior changes here at eMarketer. This is the first time we are doing a podcast together. Hey guys.

Paola Flores-Marquez (01:27):

Hello.

Jeremy Goldman (01:28):

Hey, I am really excited for this. Thank you so much for having us.

Rob Rubin (01:31):

Yeah, I'm really excited too, and I appreciate you guys joining. Before we start, because it's your first time, I always ask an icebreaker. My icebreaker is, what's your personal take on the American dream in 2025? Is it still about a house with a yard, or has it become something more fluid? Like freedom, flexibility, fulfillment. Pao, why don't you go first?

Paola Flores-Marquez (01:54):

Sure. Yeah. I think financial stability is always the core part of the American dream. I think, I don't know, I come from an immigrant background, so that was the primary driver in getting here, but now, in a modern sense, I think a lot of it comes with living on your own terms, and that may look different depending on who you are and what your passions are.

Rob Rubin (02:14):

Yeah. Jeremy?

Jeremy Goldman (02:16):

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I'm a second-generation American, and it's very interesting to see how trends really shape ... and the history of each individual family is very different, but one thing that I notice, and we study this in the creator economy, is that there are a lot of people who value things like flexibility, and fulfillment, and there are a bunch of people who, if you think about the term side hustle, that exists for more and more Americans, and that's part of their dream, is just to be fulfilled and to make enough. So it's these different things working in concert with one another.

Paola Flores-Marquez (02:52):

Yeah. I also think that once you hit that financial stability, there are families that have already built generational wealth, and they're pretty able to support future generations. It opens up the door to sort of figure out who you are, and lean into those things that you may not have been able to do if you had been struggling to reach that financial stability.

Rob Rubin (03:12):

But so few families have generational wealth.

Paola Flores-Marquez (03:15):

Correct. That is the challenge. That is the dream, but not feasible.

Jeremy Goldman (03:19):

And I would argue, yeah, I think that this is why this is such a great conversation, is because the American dream, for a lot of people, I think that they're kind of not even waking up to that might not be possible in the way that previous generations saw it. They're not even thinking about that as even within the realm of consideration, because so much wealth is in reality controlled by [inaudible 00:03:42]-

Rob Rubin (03:41):

It also depends, as what Pao was saying, and we're going to jump on this, but it's sort of interesting. For my family, when I was growing up, it wasn't even really a question about whether I was going to college or not. I was going to college. That was not part of a conversation about choices, and part of that is my parents' vision of the American dream. I have to go to college, of course. They went to college, I couldn't do worse. But now, with my kids who are sort of Gen Zers, I have one still in college, we talked about, "You don't have to go to college."

Paola Flores-Marquez (04:22):

It's so frustrating for me, because I grew up the same way. My parents both went to college in Mexico, and so for me they were like, "You have to go. This is not a negotiation. You're going."

Rob Rubin (04:30):

The same thing. I'm sure Jeremy, you did too.

Jeremy Goldman (04:32):

Oh my God, absolutely. Yeah.

Paola Flores-Marquez (04:34):

And it's really frustrating, because I love school, I love learning, I love the act of finding out more about the world around me, and I really think that it's something that should be available to everyone. But student debt is a major hurdle. It is a stone around your neck, and it's a major commitment that I don't think people fully understand when they're 18, and you're told to do this and that it'll solve all your problems, and now we're seeing that it doesn't solve all your problems. If anything, it makes things a lot more difficult.

Jeremy Goldman (05:01):

Well, and how about the fact that, I cover advertising, and obviously, if a platform tries to increase its cost to you because it works, then what happens is if you keep on getting that same return, you're getting a lower ROI. And this is something that I think we're seeing so much with colleges, is that they've gotten so much more expensive. They haven't really been able to justify that, and I just say, I don't have a kid going to college for another six years, but I'm like, it might be better to just invest in her startup and just give her the money year by year rather than send her there.

Rob Rubin (05:35):

That was the longest icebreaker I've done, but it was great. I want to jump to our first segment, the headlines. And in headlines, I pick an article that's related to a topic that we're discussing, the American Dream. Today, the impetus for this episode came from a USA Today article, "The American Dream now costs $5 million, according to an Investopedia analysis." We put a link in the show notes. Basically, the American dream costs more than ever, and for young people, home, college, retirement are drifting out of reach. So let's get into it. What is driving this? Just inflation?

Paola Flores-Marquez (06:17):

I don't think it's just inflation. Covering demographics, I cannot speak about younger generations without speaking about social media. I think social media sparks inspiration, and desire, and also shame when you're comparing yourself to what other people have and what you don't. I think it's also not just the financial circumstances, it's also a concern about political instability, and climate change, and what the future looks like. I think there's a lot of worry about even if I do achieve that, am I going to get to keep it?

Rob Rubin (06:45):

Right. And I guess that's the thing, is is it less achievable? Is the dream less achievable or different?

Paola Flores-Marquez (06:52):

Both.

Jeremy Goldman (06:54):

I definitely think both, but because ultimately what we're doing now is we're redefining what the American dream is unofficially, on the fly, and that's this very interesting thing, where if you look a little bit at some of the data about homeownership, for instance, and people who feel that that is in reach, I mean, that has just gone by the wayside. There are a lot of people who say, "I realize that homeownership was previously a way to wealth, but A, out of reach. And then B, will that really necessarily give me that type of flexibility? Is it the appreciable asset that it was, let's say, a generation ago?"

(07:32):

So I know some of the retailers that I cover who are really invested in home improvement, remodeling and so on, they are concerned about this trend, because that obviously if people treat their homes as more transient places, then they're not going to invest as much in them.

Rob Rubin (07:48):

Not going to fix them up so much.

Jeremy Goldman (07:50):

Yeah.

Paola Flores-Marquez (07:50):

I think there are also people who don't see the point in buying a house if they're going to be moving constantly. There are people, there's a whole segment of our generations or these generations that are nomadic. They love moving every once in a while, and so they don't want to be tied down to something that they can't even guarantee is going to help them in the future.

Rob Rubin (08:08):

But is that just a reaction to the fact that they can't afford to get tied down?

Paola Flores-Marquez (08:13):

It might be, yeah, I think it's a combination. I think it's a combination of not feeling beholden to the standards that came before you, so I think there is a level of rebellion. And the being realistic about our current situation

Rob Rubin (08:27):

Like defeated, almost. I'm not going to be able to do that, so I'm going to blaze a new trail here.

Jeremy Goldman (08:31):

Exactly. I think that's a really good way of putting it. If you think about the idea of also how much wealth is being passed down, I've been looking a little bit in terms of which generations are going to be inheriting how much wealth. And to me, one thing that I think most marketers are not doing is they're not investing in boomers and older consumers who have more disposable income.

(08:58):

If you think about the fact that you used to basically say, "Let's invest in younger generations and we'll keep those people buying from us for years on end," we all know loyalty, it's becoming more fickle, and it makes, I think, a lot of sense to say, "We don't know how much wealth is going to be transferred to younger generations. Maybe we should actually try to build loyalty with older cohorts." So that to me is like an undersold story here.

Rob Rubin (09:25):

Is that how you think brands, like our marketers are responding to the tension? They're actually trying to deal with this?

Jeremy Goldman (09:31):

I will say they're doing it a lot less than they ought to. That's why I think it's this interesting, under the radar story, which is, frankly, think about who can buy your product. And if you think that loyalty is not necessarily dead, but it's a lot more challenged than it was, let's say, when you or I were growing up, then it makes sense to say, "Who has disposable income now?" And I think that you do see that with, I think in particular luxury brands, that they are leaning into people who can actually afford to spend, and still see these things as status symbols.

Paola Flores-Marquez (10:04):

Yeah, I think this is a good time to mention Gen X, who always gets forgotten in a lot of these generational conversations. But Gen X right now, they're heavily in their careers, if not approaching retirement, they are financially stable. They have kids who are either on their way to either hitting their teens or out of the house, so they have more flexibility, and they're set to be the first people to inherit the money that comes from baby boomers.

(10:30):

So they're in a very financially opportune position, and baby boomers, the youngest of the baby boomers next year will hit eligibility for retirement. So we're talking about downsizing, we're talking about more travel, we're talking about yes, increased medical costs, but also the ability to pursue passions and hobbies that they didn't have a chance to before. So again, to Jeremy's point, yes, there's an untapped audience there that is not being served.

Jeremy Goldman (10:55):

As a Gen Xer. I have to kind of agree with that.

Rob Rubin (10:58):

As a baby boomer.

Paola Flores-Marquez (10:59):

As a millennial.

Rob Rubin (11:05):

Okay, boomer, what do you think? I want to ask Pao, how do you see younger generations redefining success, then?

Paola Flores-Marquez (11:16):

So this is interesting. There's a report from Adolescent earlier this year, and so some of it is very traditional, right? 73% of young Gen Zers still want homes, but how they get there is very different. As we talked about earlier, college is not the answer. 77% defined success is not living paycheck to paycheck, which I think is very, also standard to the American dream, but the 32%, almost a third, still dream of having a nomadic lifestyle. So they want that freedom to travel, and get up and leave if they want to.

(11:49):

Also, 71%, which I think is high, and also lovely, they rank work-life balance as a top priority. So part of their American dream is mental health. It's nonnegotiable for them. They want that ability to feel happy, to enjoy the lives that they've built, which I think is really at odds with the financial stress that we're currently experiencing.

Rob Rubin (12:10):

And also at odds with, the American dream was never about feeling good. That wasn't part of the equation.

Paola Flores-Marquez (12:17):

It's about grinding constantly until you keep getting more and accumulating. So it's very interesting for them to add that. And then one final point about that they mentioned in this report that I thought was fascinating was 74% say that the cost of living dictates where they live. And a facet of that is that walkability is now seen as a luxury, right? Because that means they don't have a car, which means it doesn't need maintenance, which means it doesn't need insurance, which means it's one less financial burden for them to worry about. So they're kind of moving away from that necessity of having a car, which I find fascinating.

Rob Rubin (12:54):

That is fascinating. I want to quantify this, because the data really does tell a great story. In our final segment, Story by Numbers, we discuss a few numbers that frame the story.

(13:12):

According to an Opportunity Insights study, this is fascinating. 90% of children born in 1940 grew up to earn more than their parents. That's like the genesis of the American dream. Everybody's doing better than your previous generation. By the 1980s, that share had fallen into 50% earning more than their parents, so I'm sure it's less than that now. For kids who are graduating, are they going to be able to, at the same age, have the same earning power as their parents? I don't know. How does this economic reality reshape consumer behavior?

Paola Flores-Marquez (13:48):

I think it makes debt a lot more appealing. I think we're seeing a lot of engagement with credit cards and consumer debt, just trying to keep up. And this feeling, if you're already doomed and financially struggling, then what's another $150 on the card? What's a trip?

Rob Rubin (14:05):

Can I just say that I, in a previous episode, I wheeled out this term called a debt jubilee. I like to say it that way, with a higher octave. But a debt jubilee is historic, it's when a government or a state basically wipes it, like cleans the slate, we're going to clean the slate. No more debt. And a good recent example is when the Biden administration tried to forgive student loan debt. That's a debt jubilee. Jubilee.

(14:37):

And I sort of think eventually, and this is something I said in a previous episode, we're going to have another debt jubilee, and it's going to be around consumer debt, and they're just going to have to write it off somehow, because it's become untenable.

Jeremy Goldman (14:52):

I mean, if you can tell me when exactly that's going to happen, Rob, that would be fantastic.

Rob Rubin (14:55):

Right, so you can rack up?

Jeremy Goldman (14:57):

Yeah, no, because I think that when you look at this whole entire idea of what people kind of think are what are the biggest issues, and I think that cost of living, that is one of the biggest concerns, not just in the US, but also for Gen Z and millennials abroad, according to a Deloitte study. In terms of US Gen Z, the economy is the biggest concern, and inflation is really across ... That continues, actually, to be a concern, because it's not necessarily that the levels are so high anymore, it's just that they kind of passed a certain kind of tipping point for a lot of consumers. And I think all of that adds up to a conducive situation for debt, where a lot of people know that this is something that they shouldn't necessarily lean into, but they might have to.

Paola Flores-Marquez (15:49):

Yeah, it's a survival thing at a certain point if it's between not eating and-

Rob Rubin (15:51):

Well, that's a sign, is how much are people putting groceries on credit cards? That's always a tough one. Jeremy, just because I have you here, I want to ask you, are brands marketing aspiration differently now than they used to?

Jeremy Goldman (16:08):

Yes. I mean, I think one of the key things that's really important is, and this came out of the pandemic, so one thing that we're seeing is people will place a on certain things, such as experiential events, even more than they would on let's say a status symbol bag in years past.

(16:27):

They still absolutely do care about aspirational goods and conspicuous consumption, but it's different. It becomes something where people, let's say, are going to purchase a few nice pieces of apparel that are going to reflect status, but maybe 20% less than they did before. They're being a little bit more judicious in that. So people still want to find their moments. And I think for a brand, what that means is you really have to try to connect at an emotional level as opposed to a logical level when you're selling these things. And that was always true, but it's even more so now, when people are being a lot more judicious about where they're going to be spending.

Paola Flores-Marquez (17:08):

And I think you can see that in the rise of dupes, the popularity of dupes of luxury products, speaking of handbags, and you can see brands responding to this. You see Coach and then Coach Outlet, and the way in which they shift popular Coach bags into the Coach Outlet cycle, that makes it more affordable and more achievable. So people still can have that level of conspicuous consumption at a price that doesn't kind of dilute the brand, but is still responding to that shift in consumer behavior.

Rob Rubin (17:37):

I want to, just because we have to end, this has been such a great conversation and I feel like I could go on forever, but I'd really love to have both of you give us a take on what you think the new American dream will be. Pretend you're in 2030, what's the American dream look like? Who wants to go first? Jeremy?

Jeremy Goldman (17:57):

Yeah, I think that the American dream is really changing, and a lot of it I think is going to be tied to finding fulfillment, not necessarily being able to think in terms of retiring that early, because that's one word that we really didn't talk about here, but I think that people are kind of resigned to the fact that they will be working for longer, and that's not necessarily part of it, about just quitting the workforce, but finding meaning in the work that they do.

(18:26):

And I think that, by the way, that's where a lot of the AI-related concerns are coming from. It's not that people think necessarily that they won't have a job, but if you read between the lines, a lot of studies seem to indicate that there might be a lot of jobs that people found fulfilling that an AI can do more efficiently, and then that will be taken away from you.

(18:46):

So you do see a lot of unease in that regard. But I do think that the average person is going to have something that we would previously have called a hobby that now is going to be a side hustle. People will have multiple jobs, but at least some of those jobs will fulfill them, and they are going to have to work for a while. They're not going to have that much in the way of savings, but I think that that will be the new reality. So the dream will be kind of a little bit more achievable in that regard.

Paola Flores-Marquez (19:16):

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. The language for me is very different. I'm going to borrow from Gen Z vernacular and be like, I think the American dream is the ability to live a soft life. I think it's the ability to not have to worry about these day-to-day concerns and living paycheck to paycheck, but also focus on yourself, and self-care, and do the work that you want to do because you love it, and not because you have to.

(19:39):

And I frame it in that way, I don't think it's that much different, but I think it's ... because it's so versatile. For some people that's living in a van, going across the country. For some people that's owning a tattoo shop and 10 million dogs, for some people it's still the white picket fence and kids. And so I think it's just having that level of security is still always going to be the American dream, the ability to make your own choices.

Rob Rubin (20:05):

I would say, just to sum up, if we were to think about the American dream, not as redefining it, but raising it up altitude wise, it's always been about security. It's about feeling secure. So all of those things that were the American dream were you need to feel secure, you need to do all this so that you can have this comfortable retirement in the end. And I think that whatever the dream actually is, it's going to be whatever makes people feel secure.

Jeremy Goldman (20:35):

Well said. I think, by the way, that that Edison Research and Sirius XM Media study that I put up before, that tied for third for leading concerns among US, Gen Z was access to mental health resources, and that goes into how do we define secure? I think that that is, for a lot of people, that's-

Rob Rubin (20:51):

100%.

Jeremy Goldman (20:51):

... going to be more important.

Paola Flores-Marquez (20:51):

Yeah, agreed.

Rob Rubin (20:56):

I agree.I want to thank you guys. I'm going to have you guys back. This was amazing.

Paola Flores-Marquez (21:01):

Whoo. All right.

Jeremy Goldman (21:02):

Thank you so much. Okay.

Rob Rubin (21:04):

I love this episode, so thank you for joining. And I want to thank everyone for listening to the Banking and Payments Show, an eMarketer podcast made possible by Fetch Rewards. Also, thank you to our studio team that puts these episodes together. Our next episode will be on November 11th, Veterans Day and my birthday.

Paola Flores-Marquez (21:23):

Happy birthday.

Rob Rubin (21:24):

Thank you. So be sure to check it out. See you then. Say goodbye everybody.

Paola Flores-Marquez (21:28):

Goodbye.

Jeremy Goldman (21:29):

Bye everybody.

Rob Rubin (21:30):

Bye.