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Marcus Johnson: [00:00:00] Atmosphere TV is the largest streaming TV platform purpose-built for shared social spaces like bars, restaurants, gyms, and airports. Atmosphere TV is the creator of CHIVE TV and over 30 mesmerizing audio optional channels that entertain over 150 million monthly viewers. Built for business, made for fun, Atmosphere TV.

Marcus Johnson: Welcome everyone to In the Game, a new marketer sports marketing podcast made possible by Atmosphere TV. This is a conversation about how baseball stacks up against the other major US sports, if it has a star power problem, and baseball sponsorship opportunities that marketers might be overlooking.

Marcus Johnson: Hello, folks, I'm Marcus, and today I'm alongside, living just north of New York City, senior digital media analyst Ross Benes.

Ross Benes: Hey, Marcus.

Marcus Johnson: [00:01:00] Hello there. He joins us in the studio, uh, with, uh, principal forecasting writer Ethan Cramer-Flood.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Marcus, we are crammed in here. You better appreciate it.

Marcus Johnson: Looks like it.

Marcus Johnson: Uh, he is living in the city, and just a little further south in the same city but currently in the studio with the other two gents, senior forecasting director Oscar Orozco.

Oscar Orozco: More specifically Brooklyn. Hello, listeners.

Marcus Johnson: Brooklyn. Hello. Brooklyn. What's good? Uh, today we are talking all about, uh, whether marketers should care about baseball.

Marcus Johnson: So in December 1856- ... seems the weekly news- Go- Go what?

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Good start. Fantastic.

Marcus Johnson: What's wrong with that?

Ethan Cramer-Flood: No, go. I'm- I am on board. You got me. This

Oscar Orozco: is what baseball's all

Ross Benes: about. This is, this is like that Ken Burns documentary. It starts out there.

Marcus Johnson: I'm out here, gents, okay?

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Do it. Do it.

Marcus Johnson: Doing my homework. In December 18- you probably know what I'm gonna say What happened in 1856?

Ethan Cramer-Flood: So- somebody probably invented baseball, I don't know.

Marcus Johnson: Invented, no, but it was declared, uh, America's national [00:02:00] pastime- Ooh ... uh, by a weekly newspaper, the New York Mercury. Uh, ask people today, though, they might, they might still agree with you, to be honest. Um, but pastime just means pass the, way to pass the time, and Americans aren't choosing to pass their time with baseball as much as they used to.

Marcus Johnson: According to Ampere Analysis data published by The Economist, soccer, soccer, ladies and gentlemen, recently overtook baseball to become Americans' third self-declared favorite sport. 10% said soccer, 9% said baseball, this was a couple of years ago, 36% said American football, football, uh, and 17% said basketball.

Marcus Johnson: So should marketers care about baseball as much if people seemingly aren't? Um, we're gonna ask whether baseball's growing. What, what's the audience look like, uh, today? And Ross, I'll start with you. What, what do you think? Do you think baseball's growing or not so much? And what stat might best represent this?

Ross Benes: It is growing. If you look at Sunday night baseball ratings, they're up about [00:03:00] 50% this year compared to previous years. Now, there is an asterisk- Wow ... with that data point because Nielsen has changed their methodology multiple times, so anything from the past is now inflated. Like, it, like if you're comparing something now to the past, it's gonna appear- Hmm

Ross Benes: today's number is gonna appear inflated. And it's on a broadcast network, on NBC. Before it was on a cable network, on ESPN. So being on a broadcast network, you're, you're available to more people, so you're initially gonna get a bump no matter what. But that 50% bump, regardless of Nielsen, regardless of it being on a broadcast network, shows that there is a little bit of an increased demand for baseball compared to what it was in previous years.

Marcus Johnson: Okay. I went and looked at the regular season, and the World Series, uh, uh, of course, is a, a marquee event. So I went and looked at the last 15 years. It seems as though- They are below pre-pandemic levels. It's weird baseball as well 'cause it's been, in the last 15 years there's been these kind of like milestones.

Marcus Johnson: Like in 2016, the Cubs [00:04:00] won, um, and they hadn't won in a billion years, and 23 million people watched the World Series, and so that was a spike. Um, then you've got the spike when the Dodgers play because a lot of people support the Dodgers, a lot of star power. Um, but by and large, they used to average just shy of 3 million regular season.

Marcus Johnson: That's now closer to 2. Pandemic happens, a little bit of surge after that. And then same with the World Series. Used to be kind of 15, 16 million. That's actually closer to 15, 16 than it was. But it does seem as though overall, on the whole, the numbers are slightly down. Oscar, what about you? What numbers did you find to try and, uh, uh, determine whether baseball's growing or, or not?

Oscar Orozco: Yeah, I mean, there, there are a few. I, for me it's, it's a little bit of a mixed bag, but I think you can say that it, it, it is growing a little bit. There is a slight resurgence. Yeah. I think on the, the... Actually, the d- I was gonna point one out, but I'm gonna stick to the [00:05:00] second one I had, which is, uh, we don't have the 2026 data yet.

Oscar Orozco: Mm-hmm. But the average, uh, age of a single game ticket buyer in 2025 was down to 43 y- th- 43-year-olds, uh, was the average age, and it was down from 46 in 2023. And one of the main things you hear about when, you know, you hear criticisms about baseball is that it's, you know, it's just getting older and older, right?

Oscar Orozco: That younger, younger people are not going to games. So- Mm ... while that age, uh, that average might not be, you know, particularly super young, mid- middle-aged, uh, it is going down a bit. So that does- That's a big

Marcus Johnson: drop as well-

Oscar Orozco: Yeah ... for such a short

Marcus Johnson: period- A big drop ... of ti- three years in a couple of years is

Oscar Orozco: significant.

Oscar Orozco: Exactly. Yeah. So to me, that's the most meaningful, uh, data point that I came across and that shows there, you know, maybe there is a little bit of a, of a resurgence.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Ethan?

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Yeah, I, so you didn't ask if baseball is peaking or growing based on all-time numbers. You just asked, I thought, if it's growing now.[00:06:00]

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Uh, to me, the answer is definitely yes. I mean, if you look at not just the ratings, but I, I looked up attendance and they've had- Mm ... four consecutive years of attendance growth on a national level. You know, baseball's big differentiator, whether it's an advantage or a diff- disadvantage, its differentiator is just how many games there are, 162 games, all these teams all over the country playing so many games.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: That kind of exposure just doesn't exist for any other sport. So there's just a whole lot of opportunities for people to go, and they're going. And so we, they, in this, in this particular metric, they have achieved and exceeded the 2019 levels. That's sort of what everyone compares to pre-pandemic, post-pandemic, so they're better than pre-pandemic.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: They've been growing for a while now. The changes that they've made to the game itself to speed up the game times have worked really well, particularly with younger cohorts, to Oscar's point. Um, you know, instead of, instead of it being a three-and-a-half-hour commitment, it's more closer to a two-and-a-half-hour commitment to go to these games.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Now, the [00:07:00] total attendance is not what it was at the peak, the peak era. You know, in like the, in the 2000s, according to what I saw, is about when, when baseball really peaked. It spent 10 years going down before the pandemic, and now it's starting to go back up thanks to all of these different things that they've been doing that have for the most part been working.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: So if you're asking a short-term question, uh, it's definitely a yes. Baseball is growing and heading in the right direction right now.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah, that was a good number though, the, the, yeah, four consecutive seasons of attendance growth, 2023 to 2026. It's, it's a streak not seen in nearly 20 years as well, so it's, um, it's, it's definitely significant.

Marcus Johnson: The pitch clock's interesting 'cause ESPN noting the pitch clock has cut down to what Ethan was saying, the average MLB game times, um, by roughly 25 to 30 minutes. So it takes, it varies, but it takes normally about three hours and 10. It's now closer to two 40. Um, I- it's significant. I'm surprised that they are, um, touting that as one of the reasons that viewership is doing so well.

Marcus Johnson: I, I, [00:08:00] that's still long to me. Um, what did you guys make of that move to try to, um, improve the product?

Ross Benes: Well, baseball isn't necessarily stuck in its past even though it has that perception of it. Mm-hmm. Um, like Ethan said, there's been various moves, the pitch clock, limited amount of pick-offs, limited mound visits.

Ross Benes: You, you have to, uh, have a relief pitcher face at least three batters before you, you pull them in the middle of an inning. Um, the, the challenge system is way faster than any other sport. When they, when they challenge- Mm ... balls and strikes, I mean, it's like five seconds. Good point. You know, they're not- Yeah

Ross Benes: going to the booth like they do in the NFL and take 10 minutes. So, um, you know, it's actually been quite innovative, and whenever they've made those tweaks, um, it's corresponded with acceptance among fans for the most part.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: I mean, not just acceptance, I would argue, but enthusiastic embrace. Yeah. Yeah.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: I mean, like in, in New York, I mean, the Yankees have, were traditionally one of the [00:09:00] most egregious offenders in terms of their games taking forever, particularly when they'd play the Red Sox. You hit a bunch of home runs, you change your pitcher over and over again, you go to the mound, you talk. It was, it was outrageous.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: So what, what some of the data is showing is that it's particularly weeknight games Where the ratings are up and where attendance is up. Because if you're a family, if you've got kids, whatever, you know, the i- y- you, you don't, you don't have to worry about, "Oh my God, this is like, oh, I'm gonna go to this game.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: I'm not gonna get back home till midnight." You know, those days are over, and I really, as a fan, I feel it. I've, I've been feeling it for a couple years. It's like, wow, you get up and go to the bathroom, you miss the whole inning. You know, like, things fly by. Mm-hmm. And maybe for baseball purists, that's not the best thing, because when we talk about the game declining by 30 minutes, that's 30 minutes of baseball time that is gone.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: And we haven't, we haven't lost any advertising time, right? The- Mm ... there's still just as many ad breaks. Uh, so the, the percentage of time- Mm ... while you're sitting on the couch that is now spent watching ads, you know, this is of interest to- Yeah, that's a good point ... to our audience, has not changed, but meanwhile, the [00:10:00] total amount of sports has declined considerably.

Ross Benes: Y- I'd say the, that the sports time hasn't really declined 'cause that's all dead time. It's not like football when they change, like, out of bounds, stopping the clock, which would result in fewer plays. Plays are, like, what you wanna watch for. But baseball it's like, well, A-Rod can't get out of the box and take 20 minutes to-

Ross Benes: adjust his batting gloves. Like, the mound visits, like, th- those, none of, that's not a, a pitcher throwing the ball or a batter hitting the ball. That's all dead time.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: That's- So- That's baseball. Mm. That's the chess match. You know, remember- Yeah. ... Nomar Garciaparra would, like, spend, like, 20 seconds fixing his gloves- Oh, geez.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: between every at bat. I'm dating myself. Hey, that's baseball. You know, you're moving around. You're thinking about the next pitch. No, I, I- No, it's bad TV, though ... but, you know, I'm on a, both sides of this argument because I do appreciate how fast it's going now.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. I know what, I wanna speak a bit about the, the tradition part of this.

Marcus Johnson: Before that, though, I, really quickly on the, um, viewership and whether it's doing well or not, one of the things that came to mind when I w- was thinking about w- you know, um, how baseball is done in terms of, um, uh, fan engagement, [00:11:00] I thought about the Astros and I was like, "Wait, did, did their scandal in 2019 affect viewership?"

Marcus Johnson: Um, and it seems that it had, uh- A positive effect. Oh, yeah. They call it like a vil- a villain effect. So the Astros, they became villains in 2019, and stadiums would fill out because people would wanna come and heckle and boo. Um, uh, and it created- Controversy's always

Oscar Orozco: good. It's

Marcus Johnson: always good for the sport.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It created all these storylines. Yeah. Also, there was an ESPN Global Strategy Group poll conducted right after the investigation. 60% of MLB fans said the scandal made no difference in their likelihood to watch the games, um, and, uh, didn't deter them from watching them. Uh, a- and the same poll showed 74% of adults believed most MLB teams were using technology to steal signs.

Marcus Johnson: The Astros just happened to get caught. So it didn't have the effect that I was expecting.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: I mean, the, the greatest scandal in modern history was the steroids era, and that also coincided with this golden era- Mm-hmm ... of attendance and ratings and excitement. Yeah. So obviously- Good point ... cheating is not the end of the [00:12:00] world.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Uh, we talked about the pitch clock, trying to make the games a little bit shorter. Um, there have been tweaks, uh, made, adjustments made around the edges to try to make it a bit faster. But baseball, um, it's a very social sport. It's something you go... It's a bit- It's an outing. You hang out with friends.

Marcus Johnson: You walk around the ballpark and not really miss too much of the game, uh, by and large. Ross, do you think baseball's, uh, do you think its biggest strength is the, is the tradition e- element, or do you think that's actually becoming a weakness?

Ross Benes: Well, I think the perception that it's so traditional is a weakness, um, because it- Hmm

Ross Benes: seems like it's not adept for the modern age. But, uh, like, like I said earlier, for all those rule changes they made, I don't think it actually is so traditional. It, they, baseball has been more aggressive about putting analytics in its game than any other sport. Yeah. So I, I don't think it's stuck in the past in, in the way that it's often perceived to be, but that perception, um, has been a hindrance to them.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah.

Oscar Orozco: I think it's a bit more straightforward than that. I think [00:13:00] analytics, um, goes back further than you would think. I mean, it's just, it's always been a statistical game, and I think that's been one of the reasons people have, uh, been drawn to it, you know, in the past. I mean, think of it as, like, the first fantasy, uh, game, right, where people were playing, like, fantasy baseball back to the, even the '70s or whatnot, I feel.

Oscar Orozco: But, um, uh, I mean, I, I largely think that it, it is traditional. It is, um, it's like a generational sport and, and that is a, a positive. I think that's a positive because it, it distinguishes it from, you know, the other sports, right? And it's just, um, you know, whether you- Hmm ... you're going to the ballpark, the, the essence of what the game is, like, going back to what, how you started the episode, Marcus, which is the, the national, uh, pastime- Yeah

Oscar Orozco: storyline. So, um, I, I, I think it, it is something that, uh, defines baseball. It's, and it needs to be embraced perhaps even more so.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Ethan? I mean, the, the, I just think about the celebrations that we see now, like the bat tossing and, uh, the, the, the type of, like, super, [00:14:00] sort of excitement generating enthusiasm.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Good for TV, good for the fans, good for the kids. These are the, this kind of behavior would, would never have stood even as recently as, like, 20 or 30 years ago.

Marcus Johnson: Hmm.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Uh, and now it's totally n- fine- Yeah ... and it's totally normal. Um, and b- and every, every, every player seemingly does it, right? Uh, and, and it's fine.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: And it just, I, like, uh, uh, you know, the NFL, other sports change their rules seemingly every year, sometimes in even borderline radical ways, and basketball to a lesser extent does that as well. Hmm. So baseball finally got around to embracing it and it seems to be working, you know. Hmm. And, and maybe, maybe I'm, my, my argument would be that the tradition was, uh, an albatross, and that becoming more flexible and moving on, um, has helped.

Ross Benes: They definitely have- Mm-hmm ... the most traditional Hall of Fame process that's

Ethan Cramer-Flood: stuck- That's a, that's a good thing, though ... still. Yeah. That's a good thing.

Ross Benes: I don't

Ethan Cramer-Flood: know. It's exclusive. Well, the, the- But

Oscar Orozco: that's, that's to my point, right? The, the

Ethan Cramer-Flood: it's, it's not- Well, but that's not the watching the game, right?

Ethan Cramer-Flood: But the exclusivity of Major League Baseball's Hall of Fame [00:15:00] makes it important

Ross Benes: and-

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Well, it's

Ross Benes: not that exclusive. It's like that they won't put you in if you have, like, a character flaw or you have something bad- Yeah ... in your history.

Marcus Johnson: Well, all right. So- Uh, I wanna talk about, you were talking before about, um, like the highlight element of it.

Marcus Johnson: Um, and that's something that the other sports have benefited from is, is they are, um, uh, kind of made for, for social media, so to speak. Uh, very clippable, um, uh, in terms of the content that they produce, and it does seem a lot of the other sport, like football and, um, basketball have been focusing a lot more on the players.

Marcus Johnson: Mm. People follow a player now as opposed to a team. Uh, and there's a certain element of star power that carries these leagues forward. Um, Oscar, do you think baseball has a star power problem in terms of from a... If you're a marketer in particular and you're looking at, you know, different, um, people to sponsor, do you think it's able to capitalize on the star power of its league the same way that some of the other major s- US sports is able to?

Oscar Orozco: [00:16:00] I, I think it really does have an issue. It does have a problem. It does have a superstar problem. Mm. Um, I actually pulled one stat from Kantar's 2025 athlete reputation tracker, which, uh, in this study, uh, of the top 25, what they, uh, considered most marketable s- uh, sports stars, there were only three MLB players on that list.

Oscar Orozco: Interesting. Um, so- Who are they? Uh, I think it was-

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Shohei. Shohei Judge and

Oscar Orozco: who's three? Judge, yeah, and Trout. Mike Trout and Ohtani. Wow. Yeah.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: That's old school.

Oscar Orozco: So- Yeah ... yeah, he's still, you know- Yeah ... he still makes a lot of money, still, still pretty popular, but I do think it has a, uh, an issue. Again, going back to my earlier comment, I don't necessarily think that's a problem.

Oscar Orozco: Uh, but it's something that, you know, I think the, the league needs to... I, I don't think it can compete, right- Mm ... with the, with the NBA or the NFL or these sports, uh, on that level, and so it should sort of steer away from that. Um, but I think- Interesting ... again, it speaks to just [00:17:00] the sport, right? You can have a top player on an NBA team can score 50 points a night and, and, uh, take you deep into the playoffs.

Oscar Orozco: Th- MLB doesn't work that way. Very much a, a team sport. Um- Mm ... but, you know, maybe that's okay. But, but it, it is a, it is, it is an issue. It is an issue. Yeah.

Marcus Johnson: Ross?

Ross Benes: Yeah, I, I, I'd agree with Oscar. Um- I think MLB has some fantastic stars right now, um, and they just don't do as good of a job getting them in front of people in a pop culture way.

Ross Benes: Mm-hmm. Like, like Ohtani is probably the most exciting athlete in the world really. I mean, there's- Yeah ... there's no one who can do a two-way thing like he's doing. He's one of the most exciting baseball players ever. Mm-hmm. Um, Judge, you know, one of the most dominant hitters really ever. Like, he's so much more dominant than this era would indicate.

Ross Benes: Mm-hmm. And you have a ton of pitchers that are, are really, really good, and you don't see them on TV that much. Like e- even Aaron Judge, like him and his dog were on a PAW Patrol spinoff, Rubble & Crew, but you, you don't see him [00:18:00] on- ... like TV ads like you saw Paint... Like, Peyton Manning's on way more TV ads than Aaron Judge, and Aaron Judge- Mm

Ross Benes: is one of the most dominant athletes- Yeah ... in the world right now. Um- Yeah ... so I think they have the athletes, they have the stars, but most people wouldn't even recognize them. Like, like last year, Kyle Rowley had the greatest season a catcher has ever had. Mm-hmm. Should've won the MVP. And if he walked into a bar in most cities, no one would even recognize him.

Ross Benes: You probably don't even know what Kyle Rowley looks like.

Marcus Johnson: Ethan, it's interesting 'cause, um, outside of Ohtani, it does seem like it's a bit of a, a, a drop, um, between, before you get to kind of the second and third biggest stars. And it seems as though O- Ohtani's benefiting from, um, the, uh, the fact that he's from overseas, this international, um, uh, audience that he's bringing with him.

Marcus Johnson: In terms of jersey sales, he's been number one most sold jersey in the last three years. Um, but there's also his other numbers I thought were really interesting in terms of the Ohtani effect. Asian-American viewership spiking according to Nielsen, um, his presence driving 150% year-over-year average in [00:19:00] Asian-American, uh, viewership.

Marcus Johnson: Uh, Japanese viewers in a single playoff matchup against the Padres, uh, one time 13 million viewers in Japan, um, often, uh, beating entire domestic US TV audiences for the same broadcast. The Los Angeles Tourism Board said 80 to 90% of all Japanese tourists visiting LA explicitly include a trip to Dodger Stadium on their itineraries.

Marcus Johnson: And then the foreign sponsors that he's bringing as well, some big blue chip Japanese corporate sponsors, Nippon Airways, Toyo Tires, et cetera. Do- the Dodgers sold the naming rights to Japanese retail giant Uniqlo. Um, it's been called Uniqlo Field at Dodger Stadium. Um, do you think it has a star power problem?

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Yeah, it absolutely does, because everything you just described is just evidence of what a unicorn this one person is. Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, there was, there was a data point about, you know, when the Dodgers are in the World Series, that's tens of millions of additional viewers in Japan that just wouldn't- just don't exist.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: So if we talk about the overall state of the game and the health of Major League Baseball, we should be talking about it on a [00:20:00] global level. And we talk about ratings, why not, you know, equally talk about ratings outside the country? So this guy can bring that, and then there are lots of other great Japanese players as well, but that's not replicable.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: So if you're trying to solve the problem, like, uh, I mean, to Ross's point about, about the big dumper last year, the, the most exciting pitcher in baseball right now is, is some guy in Milwaukee whose name no one can pronounce, and the average sports fan absolutely would not recognize him if he walked down the street.

Ross Benes: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: That's probably gonna continue even, you know, no matter what happens.

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: So what's

Marcus Johnson: going on there? Yeah, I mean s- And why is that the case? I, I have a- 'Cause there are lots of, like, Juan Soto, Mookie Bet-

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Like, I- Like, there are big names, but- You said it at the beginning when you announced, uh, to start this podcast that baseball has dropped to fourth, right?

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Mm-hmm. So if you're a sponsor and you own... 9% of the people in this country consider baseball to be their favorite game, but 30-plus percent football and whatever, and up near 20%- 17 ... for, for the NBA. Basketball, yeah.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Um, that, that right there sets you in a certain direction. And then to Oscar's point earlier about just [00:21:00] the nature of the sport and the fact that if I sit and watch a Yankees game for almost three hours, I only get to see Aaron Judge hit for five minutes.

Ross Benes: Mm.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: And if I watch a Knicks game- Yeah ... I get to see Jalen Brunson do, like, 30 spectacular things a night. And, and Aaron Judge on- you know, hit 60 home runs this season, and Jalen Brunson does 60 spectacular things in a week.

Oscar Orozco: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: I mean, it's, it's just, it's a problem for the sport- Yeah ... and it's not resolvable.

Oscar Orozco: Yeah. Yeah, I'd add a little bit more to that. It's just, it's a hard sp- I think it's the hardest sport to play, and it's just a very inconsistent sport, you know, in terms of performance. So to Ross's point, you know, Cal had an amazing year, st- stinks this year. We see a lot of bad contracts in the sports, players that are up and down, lots of injuries.

Oscar Orozco: Um, and I think that hurts, uh, that hurts the players from, you know, a market- a marketable standpoint. And I think brands are, are more careful, right? They're, you know, they, they're gonna be a little bit more careful to invest in them because two years out from signing a big, you know, uh, shoe deal or [00:22:00] whatever it might be, the, the player might you know, just not be worth it anymore, so- Yeah

Oscar Orozco: I think that aspect as well needs

Ross Benes: to be there. Well, it seems like a lot of the fame gets wrapped up regionally.

Oscar Orozco: Regionally, that's

Marcus Johnson: true. Oh, interesting. But is that, that could also be a positive for an advertiser potentially. I mean, if you're looking for a national-

Ross Benes: Yeah ...

Marcus Johnson: uh, campaign, then m- perhaps not.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. The other part of it is, uh, Stuart, who runs the team, I think one of his boys was making the very good point that it's, um, it's the only sport going on, major sport going on in the summer. MLS is actually gonna move, uh, I think next year to the s- the fall/spring calendar. Yeah. So, um, it does benefit from that.

Marcus Johnson: Maybe the WNBA over a number of years will have something to say about that. Um, but by and, but b- right now it is, it is the only one going on during the summer. Um, this-

Ross Benes: Might not even happen next summer.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Yeah. Well, let's segue to the, to the- Yeah ... elephant in the room here. And when, 'cause we've been talking about marketing opportunities and whether or not, you know, Oscar just brought up whether, w- whether you decide to get involved, there's, there's a there's sort of a big thing right on the horizon- Yeah

Ethan Cramer-Flood: that we should probably mention. [00:23:00]

Ross Benes: Yeah.

Marcus Johnson: So yeah, um, Ross, you were talking about it to me the other day on the show. Do you wanna paint the picture for us? What's happening with the, with baseball? Well, like the baseball- And why might it not

Ross Benes: be there this year? Yeah. They're, they're headed for a lockout almost, almost certainly.

Ross Benes: Uh, owners, um, and players are coming up for a collective bargaining agreement, and there's disagreement over various things. The biggest one is instituting a, a salary cap, and, um, the players obviously don't want that. The owners do 'cause, um, you know, they don't wanna pay labor. So if they have a lockout, uh, that would delay the start of the season, and if it, and if it keeps going, you could end up having a loss of a whole season.

Ross Benes: And if it goes beyond 60 games, that's really significant because the TV contracts all extend for an additional year. So if you're, like, NBC or you're TNT Sports and you have a certain number of national TV games through the 2028 season, uh, that automatically goes another year if they're not playing a set number of games this year.

Ross Benes: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So the, the lockout i- is, is really significant. And if, and then if you don't have it at all, if you have no [00:24:00] season, there's like very little live sports on television next summer- Mm-hmm,

Marcus Johnson: yeah ...

Ross Benes: in the US.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. So, uh, really quick, if you are a marketer and you're paying attention to this, what are the dates to keep in mind?

Marcus Johnson: What should they be watching here?

Ross Benes: Well, the first lock... Well, it's, how, it's December. What, what's the day they have to, like, they're supposed to come to an agreement after the season ends, and that's almost certainly gonna... The, the, the December day- Okay ... is like the initial lockout date- It really depends on-

Ross Benes: that's gonna almost certainly pass. That's a guarantee. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And, and then I'd say, like, the, the big one after, well, then s- whatever spring training starts would be the next one. That's in, uh- Okay ... what? March. Okay. Um, and then if you, if, if they don't have a season started by June 1st, that will mean you've missed 60 games.

Oscar Orozco: Hmm.

Ross Benes: And so the TV contracts will all be disarray. MLB and, it will- Yeah ... won't be able to renegotiate for another year. And- Okay ... then I don't know when they decide to can- I mean, you're getting in uncharted territories after June.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah.

Oscar Orozco: Yeah. I, I would argue if it pushes past the holidays and new year if, if there's [00:25:00] no- Okay

Oscar Orozco: resolution by early part- Yeah ... of 2027, it's a bad time.

Marcus Johnson: Ethan, to you and then, and then to Oscar. What, what's the most interesting part of this

Ethan Cramer-Flood: for you guys? Well, I mean, that, but so you got us here together to talk about baseball and this question of is baseball heading in the right direction? Yeah.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Should marketers, and specifically even sports marketers who maybe had not been thinking about or paying as much attention to baseball, should they refocus on this? Because a lot of baseball's problems have sort of fallen by the wayside and it is heading in the right direction, and they really are ... Uh, things are going extremely well.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: And we just have to caveat this entire podcast by saying that actually now would be a terrible time. If you haven't, if you don't already have a relationship, un- unless you've got some activation plan for the World Series, that's fine. Go ahead. You know, the World Series is gonna happen. But if you don't have anything e- Like, if you're thinking about planning something, um, don't do that right now, uh, because it's not, it might not exist.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: In fact, there's a, there's a very strong- Mm-hmm ... chance that there's not gonna be baseball in the beginning of next season. There's a strong chance even in the middle of the next season it might not [00:26:00] be around. And then even if it does sort of come back, it, it's gonna be tarnished. Everyone's gonna be- Yeah

Ethan Cramer-Flood: upset. Uh, it's gonna be a, a poorer, sort of, uh, resented, uh, a product for a little while until it sort of- Mm-hmm ... gets back on its feet, and eventually everyone

Ross Benes: forgets. It'll probably be a little rough to start, too, if they delay spring training.

Oscar Orozco: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Ross Benes: Like, if you look at the- Rusty

Oscar Orozco: players.

Ross Benes: Yeah.

Ross Benes: Like, like, like the NBA lockout in 1998, um, they, they delayed everything, um, because they had a shortened season. It was after Jordan retired. They, they had a lockout. Like, no pre-season, guys come in out of shape, less scoring, more injuries. Mm-hmm. And like, if baseball- Yeah ... pitchers aren't reporting and, and like having a real spring training and they're just thrown into the fire in like late May- Yeah

Ross Benes: um, it's, it's gonna look rough. It's not gonna be the polished game you watch right now.

Marcus Johnson: Oscar, what, what does the ... I mean, the salary cap part seems like it's- Mm ... a big piece of this here. I was gonna talk about that, actually. What does that do ... Say again?

Oscar Orozco: I was actually gonna mention that, so

Marcus Johnson: yeah. Yeah. I wonder what that does to the, to the game, [00:27:00] 'cause, um, it, the, the concern here is that the Dodgers have s- been spending more money than everyone else.

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm. Um, that's kind of true. Mets spent the most this year. Dodgers last year. Yeah, true.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Yankees- These lying, these lying statistics. My God, Marcus. Uh, so-

Marcus Johnson: Give it up. No, but that's, no,

Ethan Cramer-Flood: these are- Nobody, nobody buys this.

Marcus Johnson: No, but these are f- the official statistics for payroll. Yeah. Um, the Dodgers spent about $350 million last year.

Marcus Johnson: The Mets- Deferred ... were just shy of that.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Deferred a half billion dollars to Shohei Ohtani.

Marcus Johnson: Right. But, but that's, that- Nobody, these numbers

Ethan Cramer-Flood: don't mean anything.

Marcus Johnson: But that's, um- But that's, uh, legal. Like, you're allowed- That's funny ... to do that- So, yeah ... as part of the collecting bargaining agreement. That's right.

Marcus Johnson: It's a loophole, but other teams could do it, they just haven't.

Ross Benes: Well, the Mets did it with Bobby Bonilla, and they're still paying. Hey,

Marcus Johnson: they're not the

Ross Benes: only ones.

Marcus Johnson: So it's not, it's not technically illegal- The Nationals ... um, but that's what people are, are bothered by. I guess my point, though, is that, yes, the Dodgers have paid Otani this much.

Marcus Johnson: Um, [00:28:00] but they won 2025, they won 2024. M- spending a lot of money doesn't mean you're gonna win. Doesn't mean you win. The Mets spent nearly as much as the Dodgers last year, they missed the playoffs. This year they also missed the playoffs. So it doesn't necessarily correlate. It doesn't. But also, the Dodgers have won the last two, but then you've got the Rangers the year before that, Astros before that, Braves before that.

Marcus Johnson: Dodgers fine, but then Nationals, Sox, Astros, Cubs, Royals. It does seem like a lot of other teams are winning the sport, so what does the salary cap do to the product?

Oscar Orozco: That's, that was gonna be my, my point, really. I think, um, the way the season has shaped up might change that narrative. I think everybody expected the players to have all the power going into the lockup.

Oscar Orozco: Mm. Um, and that might not be the case, because we've seen so many teams with really low salary, um, uh, s- salaries amount, um, sort of do well, go deep into the playoffs. Um, and so it'll be interesting. It, it could be that the owners actually have a little bit more power than everybody expected. So it's... I, I think that's the main thing we have to look, uh, look forward to, right?

Oscar Orozco: The, the making some sort of agreement on that. Will there be [00:29:00] a salary cl- cap floor? Will the s- you know, the ceiling be lowered? Um, it's all unclear, but I do, I do think it's an interesting theme, seeing that, you know, perhaps, again, the owners have a bit more power than everybody expected.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. I do wonder how it, the new CBA will change the game.

Oscar Orozco: Mm-hmm.

Marcus Johnson: Um, and- That's gonna be really important ... and the mix of teams. Yeah. 'Cause this seems... I mean, actually basketball in the last, uh, you know, seven, eight, nine years has had a different winner each of those years. Yeah, basketball's

Ross Benes: had a lot of parity recently. Yeah.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. But people don't really like parity.

Marcus Johnson: They say that they do, um, if you're a smaller market perhaps, but dynasties do well for, for viewership. Um- They

Oscar Orozco: do

Marcus Johnson: Because you create a villain. Yeah. Um, so, uh- But I think, I think- Yeah, as much as I do like parity... Huh?

Oscar Orozco: Yeah, I was, I was sorry to interrupt. I was gonna say, I do, I think of course the whole the, the Dodgers story, uh, but I feel like baseball has more parity than s- m- some might admit, you know?

Oscar Orozco: Yeah. Um, and I think that's just- Yeah ... kinda like a historical thing. We're seeing it with the NBA, but that wasn't the case for a long time. Yeah. Um-

Marcus Johnson: NFL too, I mean, sure, the Chiefs won a couple, [00:30:00] but, um, by and large it has been, um, there's been a fair amount of parity across the major sports. Yeah. Um, so we'll see what the Sally Cup does.

Marcus Johnson: Assuming, let's, uh, let's close the episode by talking about sponsorship opportunities. Assuming baseball figures things out, if it doesn't next year, it will the year after that. At some point- Mm-hmm ... baseball will be on. Um, Ethan, I'll start with you. What are some baseball sponsorship opportunities that marketers might be overlooking?

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Yeah, I, so i- in New York, it's a different vibe. Uh, I, I understand why you ask the question. Clearly, uh, baseball players and, and the sport just doesn't receive as much attention from marketers nationally. But here, you know, Aaron Judge is sort of quite prominent. Until the Knicks did what they did, he was the biggest athlete- Hmm

Ethan Cramer-Flood: in the city, and we have two NFL teams, and Aaron Judge was still- Mm-hmm ... uh, the biggest star here. That's, uh, pr- maybe not the case anymore. So it's not hard to, uh, you can envision it. I mean, you d- the billboards and the, the lo- uh, I, uh, Ross mentioned earlier about the, how baseball is more of a local sport, more of a regional sport, and [00:31:00] the, the hometown team is beloved by its fans, and that's where probably those activations are most effective because you're, it's, we're just unlikely to take these, you know, what, what's his name?

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Maz and, you know, the I can't even remember. Mizarowski. Mazarowski. Mizarowski, yeah. In, in Milwaukee. You know, he's unlikely to ever become as big a star as Steph Curry. Like, it just isn't gonna happen. Um, but- Mm-hmm ... I, I bet he'd be incredibly effective s- uh, promoter in Wisconsin, you know? Hmm. Yeah. And so th- this is, uh, this is probably the answer, which is why in New York it feels like there are Yankees on billboards, and there are Yankees promoting the local car dealership and all this kind of stuff, and that's probably what, you know, what you wanna look for in the rest of the country as well.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Ross?

Ross Benes: Uh, well, I just wanna a- add something to what E- Ethan said. At Yankees games, um, they play that P.C. Richard & Son whistle. You know, the doo, doo, doo, doo, doo. Mm-hmm. Yes, they do. I have a friend who didn't realize that was a branded thing for like 10 years. That's how effective the ad was. Yeah. And he, like, heard their, like, commercial, and he's [00:32:00] like, "That's from the Yankees game."

Ross Benes: I'm like, "No, the Yankees game is from P.C. Richard & Son." That's how... They'd embedded it into the game- Yeah ... and now you, you think they're part of the Yankees.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: That's a great example. And, and that's a, a local company. Yeah. You know?

Ross Benes: Yeah.

Ethan Cramer-Flood: A local chain, right?

Ross Benes: Yeah. The, the ad I like the most is the, uh, the superimposed image on the pitcher's mound.

Ross Benes: It l- it looks kinda cheesy, and I think that's why I like it. You can put whatever logo you want there, and it kinda looks like it's really there, but it's not. I, I imagine that gets a lot of attention.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Oscar?

Oscar Orozco: I, I took this... I, I came in, it's actually, my idea has evolved as we were talking about the whole local, regional aspect of baseball.

Oscar Orozco: But I was wondering out loud bef- you know, before, uh, getting on the podcast about, like, collectibles. Like, are, are kids still- Mm. You know- Hm ... collecting cards, and is that still a thing? But, you know, I think that my, my whole, uh, thinking was how traditional baseball is to embrace that, right? That's what I've been saying throughout the episode.

Oscar Orozco: So thinking of collectibles, you know, maybe digitizing them, [00:33:00] what can be done- Mm ... in a digital way. Something... But also then tying it to a more, you know, the team, the local- Yeah ... uh, sort of, um, you know- That's cool ... uh, accent to that. I don't know. So it's a, um- Yeah ... a mix of a few things, but I think there's something there to that.

Marcus Johnson: I mean, you could digitize it, but there is a, a craving for real-world experiences. So maybe- Yeah ... you know, collecting the cards, having the album, um, that you can kinda slot them into. Yeah. Maybe there's a, there's a place for that. I think the in-person ballpark experience, um, is be- gonna become even more important.

Marcus Johnson: We've seen that by the attendance numbers- Super important ... that Ethan mentioned. Yeah. Uh, so maybe there's something there, where if you go to the game, you get a certain number of cards for, for a coup- maybe you get a small pack of, like, five cards, and- Yeah, for attendance- ... you can make it part of that ... or, yeah- Yeah, part of that experience

Marcus Johnson: some sort of

Oscar Orozco: milestones from, yeah-

Marcus Johnson: Mm-hmm ... the

Oscar Orozco: players themselves. Mm-hmm.

Marcus Johnson: Yeah. Um, I also wonder if the... Yeah, you can turn the, the, in terms of another marketing opportunity, maybe you can turn the slower pace into a marketing asset. Like, people are at the ga- uh, games, and, uh, there's a lot of, uh, downtime in between pitches, in between innings.

Marcus Johnson: So [00:34:00] maybe that's a good thing for an advertiser. A lot of opportunities to reach people there. Um, and, uh, yeah. But sometimes you want to create urgency. 162 games, how do you make people care about all of them? Uh, and so some ways may be, uh, focusing on, uh, maybe a singular player of that day.

Ross Benes: You might even- There might be 154 soon

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Yeah, there's a proposal to reduce the-

Marcus Johnson: To go down?

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's-

Marcus Johnson: Okay ... talk about- I was reading that in '62 they went up- Talk about- Love that book ... because they added teams. But, um, I think it went from about 150- Well, the league, that's, like, a, the

Ross Benes: thing the league's trying to get the players d- Yeah ... as a concession to, to play fewer games

Marcus Johnson: Okay, interesting.

Marcus Johnson: Um, but yeah, lots of content opportunities. Mic'd up player content, um, maybe fantasy baseball stuff and prediction things. So, uh, long seasons, but, um, maybe not, maybe not a bad thing. A lot of opportunities there. Uh, well, that will do it. I hope to see, uh, everyone for In The Game next month. Uh, thank you to, uh, Mike, Danny, and Lars on the production crew today.

Marcus Johnson: And of course, thank you to my guests. Thank you to Ross.

Ross Benes: Thanks, Marcus.

Marcus Johnson: Ethan?

Ethan Cramer-Flood: Oh, [00:35:00] uh, you know, the Yankees just- I, uh, I just, I gotta go cry now.

Marcus Johnson: He's a Yankees fan. And Oscar.

Oscar Orozco: Let's go Mets. Thank you.

Marcus Johnson: Oh, no. That is so much worse. We'll get with- Well, no, thank you. Uh, to everyone, th- for listening In The Game, the Market Sports Marketing Podcast, made possible by Atmosphere TV.

Marcus Johnson: Tomorrow, uh, hang out with me if you want, and I'll be trying to figure out how well ad spending is doing.