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Rahul Chadha (00:00):

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(00:27):

Hey, folks, it's July 21st, 2025. Minda Smiley, Paul Verna, and listeners, welcome to Behind the Numbers, an EMARKETER video podcast made possible by Quad. No, I am not in fact Marcus Johnson doing a superb American accent. I am your guest host Rahul Chadha, director of reports editing stepping in for Marcus.

(00:46):

Joining me for today's conversation we have Vice President of Content based in Maine Paul Verna.

Paul Verna (00:50):

Hey.

Rahul Chadha (00:51):

Paul, welcome.

Paul Verna (00:52):

Great to be here, Marcus. I'm sorry, Rahul.

Rahul Chadha (00:56):

It's an easy mistake to make. Also joining us, we have Senior Analyst covering social media based in New York City Minda Smiley. Thanks for being here, Minda.

Minda Smiley (01:02):

Yes, thank you. Excited.

Rahul Chadha (01:04):

Awesome. But first, before we get to the topic of the show, today's fact. An EV just broke the world record for going the longest distance on a single charge. The car, a Lucid Air Grand Touring model, went roughly 749 miles between St. Moritz, Switzerland and Munich, Germany earlier this month. For some context, that's roughly the distance from New York City to Atlanta as the crow flies. That bested the previous record of 649 miles set by a Mercedes Benz EQS450+. That does not roll off the tongue. That happened just a month prior in June, when the car traveled between two cities in Japan. EVs are set to account for more than a quarter of cars sold worldwide this year, according to International Energy Agency. Yeah, just a little tidbit about EVs. Now, the pivot though, for today's real topic, the blurring of social and streaming.

(02:04):

In June, Kaya Yurieff and Kalley Huang of The Information reported that both TikTok and Instagram were working on apps intended to allow people to access those services on their televisions. According to the report, IG's app could "show content like its Reels short form videos." TikTok, meanwhile, has been working on a new TV app that The Information said was intended to "attract older viewers and capture the higher advertising rates that come with connected TV as opposed to social media."

(02:33):

Now, this topic is based largely on Minda's US Social Video 2025 Report, and you get into a lot of these topics in quite granular detail. I just wanted to get your take, first of all. What's your take on TikTok and IG's efforts to secure a spot in living rooms?

Minda Smiley (02:47):

Yeah. I have to say, it wasn't surprising to me. If anything, I'm surprised it took this long, to be honest. I think there are really a few reasons for that. On the one hand, social networks have a history of copying one another in really trying to see what works, and essentially, yeah, copy whatever their rivals are doing. We saw that with Snapchat Stories. More recently, we saw that with TikTok, and then we saw Reels and Shorts. It seems like this is just the next thing.

(03:14):

These social networks are seeing how well YouTube has done in the living room and how they've really cemented themselves as one of the top streamers, if not the top streamer, which Paul can speak more to that. YouTube is definitely a force right now, so of course TikTok and Instagram, which are really video-first social networks are going to see how they can emulate some of that and rival them in a capacity that isn't just in the purely social realm. Obviously, Instagram Reels, TikTok, and YouTube Shorts all compete with one another, but now it looks like Instagram and TikTok want to compete in the living room as well.

Rahul Chadha (03:48):

I think one of the interesting things about this that jumped out to me was just the nature ... I remember when so much was made of vertical video and how big pivot that was from portrait-style video. I remember you used to get lambasted online if you didn't shoot your video in landscape mode. Do you think the nature of vertical video is going to be a challenge for adoption for these apps, in terms of of people watching them on TV? Is it just a fundamentally different experience do you think for viewers?

Minda Smiley (04:14):

You know, I think to some extent yes. I think lately we've been hearing a lot of people talk, YouTube has been talking about this, but I've also heard marketers talk about this as well, which is that people do watch YouTube Shorts on TV screens. Now, I think there is some nuance there in that the YouTube interface is just very connected. When you're on YouTube, you can toggle between a longer form video, a shorter video, a Short, what have you. I don't know if there are a ton of people explicitly going to YouTube to watch Shorts on TV screen, I think it maybe just happens more organically than that. Again, that's something I feel like maybe Paul could weigh in on.

(04:51):

I do think it is somewhat of a challenge, but I also think as a society, we've become so accustomed to watching vertical videos. I was even talking to a marketer recently who said they recently made an ad for streaming for TV that actually just featured vertical videos because they know that's just what catches people's eyes. That's how people are used to seeing videos now. They actually wanted to make the video vertical for the TV screen in the ad just because they thought it would resonate more with their audience.

(05:20):

I think there are some challenges there, especially when you think about the premium versus maybe not premium argument. Of how are people viewing these videos and do they consider them premium, and what does that mean for advertisers, and whatnot. But I do think more generally, there is an appetite there to watch vertical video on TV screens.

Rahul Chadha (05:40):

Gotcha.

Paul Verna (05:41):

Yeah, just to pick up on what Minda was saying. We're definitely seeing more vertical video on TV screens, whether it's coming from citizen journalists in a news program, or experiments with ads, or just because that's what people are doing more of these days. But the bottom line is that screen is still oriented horizontally, and unless that changes, which I think it's pretty unlikely because of sports, and movies, and things that really are meant to be experienced in a landscape format.

(06:15):

The thing that jumped out to me about this whole story was how Facebook and Instagram both went pretty far in trying to launch a CTV app. This was a long time ago. I was trying remember. Rahul, you might know, or Minda, what it was called, but they were creating TV series. It was all around the CTV app. Instagram TV, IGTV, was meant to do the same thing.

(06:48):

There's also the problem that when these brands are established for a certain audience and on a certain device, which is a mobile device, it is very, very hard to make that leap. It's been hard for YouTube to make that leap, but they have succeeded in doing it because they've been around for 20 years, they've figured it out. They're not tied to the vertical orientation, so they were born on the desktop.

Rahul Chadha (07:17):

Sorry. So you think maybe the challenge for them isn't necessarily the form factor in terms of portrait versus vertical, but just user behavior? That people don't have the ingrained muscle memory of going to their TV when they want to fire up Instagram Reels or something that like.

Paul Verna (07:32):

I think it's a combination of both.

Rahul Chadha (07:32):

Yeah, interesting.

Minda Smiley (07:33):

Yeah, I would agree. We don't know what's going to happen in the future too, in terms of how they're going to approach these apps, a lot remains to be seen. Maybe they will push a more horizontal viewing. I know TikTok actually been encouraging creators to make horizontal videos, so maybe that is something they will try to do. But again, I do think a lot of this speaks to Paul's point, which is it might be more of a branding issue than anything. Of just people aren't really used to wanting to go on Instagram in a TV setting.

Rahul Chadha (08:05):

Yeah.

Paul Verna (08:06):

Yeah.

Rahul Chadha (08:07):

I think you guys both probably made mention already of YouTube. It seems like this is well-trod ground already for YouTube. The Information article noted that YouTube has already found success attracting audiences on connected TVs, expanding beyond just computers and phones. According to some data from Nielsen, YouTube has accounted for more audience viewing time with TVs than any other media company, including the Walt Disney Company, Paramount, and Netflix. We have to qualify that measurement a little bit, because it's not strictly YouTube versus Instagram, or some other specific service. But it's YouTube versus media companies that have maybe some different ways that consumers can access video.

(08:47):

I think YouTube, to me, seems like the template that these companies are trying to models themselves off. Do you think every social platform, and maybe I should qualify that by saying every, what you describe Minda in your US Social Video 2025 Report, is video-led or video-first social media platform, are all these platforms, do they want to look like YouTube?

Minda Smiley (09:09):

Yeah. I don't know if it's that simple. I don't know if they all want to look like YouTube exactly. I think Instagram and TikTok definitely want to at least copy what's working on YouTube and they do seem to think that this push to CTV is something that they can compete with YouTube a little bit more in terms of user time spent. Which obviously, the more time people are spending on their platforms, the more ad dollars they can get. I do think there is some of that.

(09:38):

I also think it is a little bit tricky because I believe a lot of these social platforms, they are always copying each other, but they also do find strength in leaning more into what makes them unique and what works for them individually. I think we've seen that recently with some of the smaller platforms. Anyone who's talked to me recently knows that I've been going on and on about Reddit, I'm going to do it again here. Reddit, I think partly why Reddit is seeing momentum right now is because they actually don't really look like any of the other social platforms. They're really leaning in to what makes them unique. That doesn't mean they aren't experimenting with some of the things we're talking about, but Reddit is pretty unique and I think that's partly why they are seeing some momentum right now. They still remain incredibly small, but they are seeing pretty good growth right now. It's always this delicate balance of trying to keep up with your rivals, but also being unique enough that you're different.

Paul Verna (10:29):

Right.

Minda Smiley (10:30):

Yeah.

Rahul Chadha (10:30):

Yeah, differentiation I'm sure is a key selling point for these platforms, too. Paul, what do you think about the idea of YouTube serving as the model for these social media platforms? Does that make sense to you or is it way off base?

Paul Verna (10:42):

I think it does because YouTube has been more things to more people than any other platform. For the premium streaming platforms, YouTube is essentially the one to beat. When we were talking about the streaming wars, it was is Netflix going to beat Disney+? Is it going to be Netflix against Hulu? Or is Amazon going to scale up? But the bottom line, and The New York Times actually just ran recently an article with the headline The Streaming Wars Come Down to Two: YouTube versus Netflix.

Rahul Chadha (11:18):

Right.

Paul Verna (11:19):

That was unimaginable maybe five, six, seven years ago when YouTube was primarily accessed on mobile. Now, CTV is a big, big part of their business from a user standpoint and from an ad revenue standpoint. I think that at the same time, it has not lost ground in the creator space and in the place where it competes most with Instagram and TikTok.

(11:46):

Really, it has somehow managed to continue to be relevant across a very, very broad spectrum of video consumption. Whereas, I think when you look at other platforms, they are very, very good in more specific parts of it. But YouTube cuts across it in a way that is impressive and they've been very resilient. I think while I wouldn't say that TikTok or Instagram are trying to refashion themselves exactly the way YouTube is because there are still going to be differences in the interface, in the way they position themselves to their audience, but there's definitely something to be said for looking at YouTube as a role model for how to make all of this stuff work.

Rahul Chadha (12:28):

Yeah.

Paul Verna (12:28):

Which is not easy from a business standpoint.

Rahul Chadha (12:31):

Absolutely. I think just jumping to this Nielsen data, which really jumped out at me. This is data for May 2025 and it shows that YouTube had a 12.5% share and that's their aggregated view of total TV usage by media company. Like I mentioned before, it's beating companies like Walt Disney, NBC. You mentioned Netflix, Paul. Netflix's comparative share is 7.5. YouTube is besting Netflix by about 5 percentage points, which is not shoddy at all.

(13:04):

I think the other thing that jumped out to me is that YouTube has been at the top of this list I think for a couple months running now according to Nielsen's data.

Paul Verna (13:11):

Yeah, actually four months.

Rahul Chadha (13:12):

Four months?

Paul Verna (13:13):

Four months. Whereas Nielsen Gauge was established, I think it was in July of last year. There was one month when ... It's mostly been Disney at the top of the leader board. One month, I think NBCU because of the Olympics was on top. Then one month last year, Netflix edged out Disney by a little bit. But these four months are now a trend. Not only did YouTube surpass Disney, but the gap has been widening. I think the figure you cited, that 12.5, if I'm not mistaken, it's two percentage points higher than Disney and that's the highest, that's the biggest spread they've had. It's one thing when it happens sporadically, but now it really seems to be a trend.

Rahul Chadha (13:56):

Yeah, Disney's at 10.7% share.

Paul Verna (13:59):

Okay, almost two.

Rahul Chadha (14:01):

Almost 2% higher, you're right. Okay. We've talked about Instagram and TikTok's efforts maybe to get in the living room. YouTube is a potential model for what that might look like. At the same time, this is a trend, you also talk about it in your report, Minda, streamers have been inking deals with creators.

(14:19):

Perhaps the most famous example is YouTuber Mr. Beast launching his show Beast Games on Amazon Video Prime in December. Then more recently in January, fellow YouTuber Miss Rachel struck a deal to license some of her existing YouTube content to Netflix. Jeff Weiss of Business Insider reported on the Miss Rachel deal as a signal of "how content creators and traditional Hollywood formats are merging."

(14:41):

I think the big question from me here is should streamers be worried now about these social platforms? They're trying to get into the living rooms. Are they trying to encroach on a streamer's turf? Basically, at the end of the day, is it a viable idea for them to go after their ad dollars? Is partnering with creators the best way for them to do that, or is there some other way that you think streamers might try to make those advances? I think, Minda, maybe I'll start with you first.

Minda Smiley (15:06):

Yeah. I think there's not really one roadmap or one way that we're seeing both social networks and the streamers go about partnering with creators. I think it's going to be a balance. Even when you look at the streamers, as you mentioned, we're seeing some play out as licensing deals. We're seeing some play out as original series. Peacock, for example, I think they actually have a creator incubator program where they're hiring creators essentially to write scripted shows for the streaming service. I could go on and on. There's so many different examples of how streamers are working with creators in various ways.

(15:40):

Of course, it is a lot of the big names. The vast majority of creators of smaller and their presence largely lives on social, and it will remain that way for quite some time. But I do think these big names, seeing all these different ways that they are making their way to streaming is definitely interesting. For the social platforms as well, so much of their success as of late has been bolstered by these creators. Of course, it's not the only thing, but the creator economy is a big reason why we are seeing social still continue to post such robust growth year-over-year from an ad spend point of view, from a user point of view. They of course want to keep creators on their platforms as much as possible and keep those audiences there. I think really it's a lot of just blurred lines right now in terms of what streaming content looks like and what social content looks like when it comes to these big name creators.

Paul Verna (16:35):

Yeah. It's important to point out also that media companies, whether they're streamers or traditional media companies, have always tried to embrace creators on one level or another. I think we're just seeing that elevated. You look now at a Joe Rogan and the influence that he has as a podcaster, he's really a brand unto himself. You mentioned Mr. Beast. If you look back, Netflix cut some deals with directors and creators like Shonda Rhimes. There's a long history of this going back to the early part of the last century, with United Artists being formed as a company led by creators by Charlie Chaplin in 1919, and then it became a big film studio.

(17:21):

I think as Minda was saying, there is a blurred line because a creator who has a huge audience then becomes an entertainment brand. That can fall very much within the realm of what a streaming companies wants to associate themselves with, just like traditional media did.

Rahul Chadha (17:35):

Yeah. I think one of the things, you mentioned that recent article, Paul, about YouTube versus Netflix. But it seems like to me that it's still YouTube and the social platforms are banking on a fundamentally different business model where they're not investing in content. Paul, you mentioned that Facebook had dabbled in those waters before.

Paul Verna (17:53):

Yeah.

Rahul Chadha (17:53):

I don't know if you guys remember, I believe the service was called Facebook Watch and maybe IGTV.

Paul Verna (17:58):

It was. I looked it up while we were talking.

Rahul Chadha (18:02):

Okay.

Paul Verna (18:02):

Its Facebook Watch announced in 2017, launched in 2018. The show that stuck in my mind was a show that they made called Sorry For Your Loss, that was the first thing. But it was a big thrust into TV, premium TV type content, which went absolutely nowhere.

(18:23):

The bottom line is all of these platforms have huge audiences. We haven't even talked about the demographics, so I think that's a big part of the push. There's not anything stopping them from leveraging that space in the living room, but I think it's a lot harder than it seems like it might be to bring that audience into that other form factor.

Rahul Chadha (18:46):

Yeah, I think you mentioned demographics. I think The Information I said already reported that it was really trying to attract older viewers. Sorry, TikTok is trying to attract older viewers via the living room. Yeah, I think demographics definitely plays a key element here.

(19:03):

Is it realistic that people are going to start reallocating or just thinking about this in their calculus as Instagram and TikTok as something comparable to CV in terms of marketing goals, in terms of campaigns? Minda mentioned that one of the key factors I think that determines ad spend a lot of times is differentiation. Or they want to maintain that distance and they're just going to serve different purposes to marketers than CTV might?

Minda Smiley (19:34):

Yeah. I think it's still probably too early days to tell if there's going to be real budget allocation differences. There's still a lot of question marks around what TikTok and Instagram CTV apps are going to look like, how quickly they're going to gain traction, if and how they're going to change the way they work with creators knowing that they're investing in these apps.

(19:53):

I think it's hard for me to say now, but I do think overall ... One thing I've been hearing lately, and this is sort of tangential but also related. I think so much of advertising happens in cycles and I've actually been talking to a lot of marketers recently that have been saying they're actually changing their TikTok, I guess you could say marketing strategy, and they're leaning a little bit less into trends. It's not so much about hopping on the latest viral trend. They're actually creating their own more episodic, more polished content on TikTok. Essentially, I forget how one marketer phrased it to me, but he basically said, "We're just making stuff that looks more like an ad now. We're not trying so hard to blend in with TikTok and make it seem so organic and trend-driven. We're just creating our own storytelling and our own ads, and really hoping it resonates with users."

(20:39):

Again, not to keep going back to this idea of blurred lines, but that really is what's going on right now. They're creating more polished, premium ads that maybe work on TikTok, but also could work in a streaming environment where ads typically tend to be a bit more thought out, a bit more polished, as opposed to your day-to-day social ads. I think there's going to be a lot of interesting movement happening in terms of things are just going to start looking more similar. It might be harder to differentiate what a TikTok ad looks like versus what a Netflix ad looks like. Yeah, that's my take right now. As many things in social, that could change six months from now.

Rahul Chadha (21:14):

Absolutely.

Paul Verna (21:16):

Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if I was quoted on this podcast expressing skepticism about YouTube's ability to transition into the CTV space when it first came up eons ago. Rahul, I know you were on the ground floor of that whole experience with the podcast.

Rahul Chadha (21:34):

Yeah.

Paul Verna (21:35):

I was wrong. I think YouTube has been very successful. I just wouldn't bet against any of these companies. I think it is a very high bar. It's largely a branding issue, and to some extent, that form factor issue. I think it's hard to see it happening, but stranger things have happened, and not just by Netflix.

Rahul Chadha (21:57):

Early days yet. They haven't even launched the app yet. Thank you, guys, so much. I think that's all we have time for. Thanks to Minda Smiley, appreciate you joining in.

Minda Smiley (22:06):

Yes. Thank you.

Rahul Chadha (22:07):

Thanks to Paul, thanks for joining us and spending time with us today.

Paul Verna (22:10):

Always a pleasure, Rahul. You can go ahead and quit your day job, you did a great job at this.

Rahul Chadha (22:16):

I'll wait for the returns to come in, see what the post-publication verdict is, but I appreciate that.

Paul Verna (22:21):

Don't quit your day job.

Rahul Chadha (22:22):

I just wanted to give a shout-out, thanks to the editing crew, and to everyone for listening in to Behind the Numbers, an EMARKETER video podcast made possible by Quad. You can subscribe and follow us to hear about new episodes, and give us a rating and review if you have time. Tune in Wednesday for the Reimagining Retail Show for a discussion on Amazon's Prime Day.