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Marcus Johnson (00:00):

In marketing, everything must work seamlessly or efficiency, speed, and ROI all suffer. Suffer, I tell you. That's why Quad is obsessed with making sure your marketing machine runs smoothly with less friction and smarter integration. Better marketing is built on Quad. See how better gets done at Quad.com/buildbetter.

(00:24):

Hey, gang, it's Friday, July 18th. Suzy, Tim, and listeners, welcome to Behind the Numbers, an EMARKETER video podcast made possible by Quad. I'm Marcus, and today I'm joined by two people, let's meet them. We start with our Vice President of Content and Head of our Retail Desk. Living Life in New York, it's Suzy Davidkhanian .

Suzy Davidkhanian (00:42):

Hello. Thanks for having me.

Marcus Johnson (00:43):

Hello there. Of course, of course. We're also joined by President and Chief Strategy Officer of Agency Services at Quad. Living in New York as well, it's Tim Maleeny.

Tim Maleeny (00:52):

Hello, great to be here.

Marcus Johnson (00:54):

Hello, sir, welcome to the show.

Tim Maleeny (00:55):

Thank you.

Marcus Johnson (00:56):

He's an external guest. So we start of course with a speed intro. This is the part where we get to know our guests a little bit better, internal and external. Two questions, first one's just for Tim. Tim, what do you do in a sentence?

Tim Maleeny (01:13):

I try to make the hard parts of marketing easy for clients.

Marcus Johnson (01:17):

Very nice. And tell us a bit about Quad.

Tim Maleeny (01:19):

So Quad is a legacy printer that now offers the complete range of marketing services. We have a great creative agency called Betty. We have a fully integrated media agency called Rise. Design studio called Favorite Child.

(01:33):

We do direct. We have an incredible data platform. So anything you could ask an advertising agency or media agency, fully integrated marketing services company to do, we do at Quad.

Marcus Johnson (01:47):

Very nice. Second question. First to you, Tim. If money wasn't a factor and you weren't allowed to do what you're doing right now, what job would you want to do and why?

Tim Maleeny (01:58):

I would write novels, which I do now with my day job, but I would probably write more. I would write in different genres. I'd maybe write books for young readers, kids' books, things like that. Right now I just have time to write mystery novels. But I love my day job, so I'd only write full-time if I wasn't allowed, as you said, to do my day job. I like the balance. I like doing both.

Marcus Johnson (02:20):

Very nice. You already have some stuff published?

Tim Maleeny (02:22):

Yeah, six novels out. A bunch of short stories, yeah.

Marcus Johnson (02:26):

Okay. And your favorite is?

Tim Maleeny (02:27):

Favorite is probably the most recent, Hanging the Devil. It's an art heist. It's a global art heist. So if you've ever fantasized about robbing a museum, this might be the book for you.

Marcus Johnson (02:38):

Suzy has, for sure.

Suzy Davidkhanian (02:40):

Always.

Tim Maleeny (02:41):

You've robbed a museum? Or just thought about it?

Suzy Davidkhanian (02:44):

All of the above.

Tim Maleeny (02:44):

You don't have to say.

Marcus Johnson (02:45):

[inaudible 00:02:46] is she's planning her next.

Suzy Davidkhanian (02:45):

I plead The Fifth.

Tim Maleeny (02:47):

You don't have to say on air. That's okay.

Marcus Johnson (02:49):

Suzy, how about you? What would you do?

Suzy Davidkhanian (02:51):

So I, true story, would be a journalist/talk show host and it would be something between an Oprah Winfrey and a Barbara Walters. My friend's mom in high school has already dubbed the name of my show, so if anybody's listening, I would like to produce it. It would be called Suzy's Secrets, and I think it would be amazing.

Tim Maleeny (03:10):

I would watch that show all day long.

Suzy Davidkhanian (03:10):

Thank you.

Marcus Johnson (03:14):

I probably wouldn't.

Suzy Davidkhanian (03:16):

Obviously.

Marcus Johnson (03:17):

You said you would be better than Letterman. You said you'd be better than David Letterman and that seemed too much for me.

Suzy Davidkhanian (03:24):

I don't even know what to say to that. Come on.

Marcus Johnson (03:27):

We're happy to have you here and luckily you've got a day job. Today's real topic, the Future is Physical, Reclaiming Real World Relevance in a Digital Age.

(03:39):

All right folks. Today we are talking about the physical realm. That's the one we live in. Sometimes we forget that. Tim, I want to start with this question. Why should brands care about physical touch points in today's overwhelmingly digital first age, it seems?

Tim Maleeny (03:57):

We are three-dimensional creatures and we live in a three-dimensional world.

Suzy Davidkhanian (04:00):

Not Marcus.

Tim Maleeny (04:01):

The digital world is just an extension of that. And I think often marketers make it an either or proposition. Am I a digital brand? Is it the digital store? When in fact customers want a blend of both because that's their reality. And we're seeing that.

(04:18):

You see this in this study. Younger consumers in particular are trying to digitally detox. They want in-store experiences, they want to get catalogs, direct mail. The tactile sense has gotten lost in this swing to digital. We want to do both. As marketers, what's the balance? But it all works together.

Suzy Davidkhanian (04:35):

Yeah.

Marcus Johnson (04:36):

And the study you're referencing, you just put out, it is a piece of research with the Harris Poll. Tell us a bit about that quickly.

Tim Maleeny (04:40):

Yeah, it's a big study with the Harris Poll and Quad, and it looked at the relationship between the physical and digital and some of those stats were extraordinary. I mean, you have eight out of 10 young people saying they explore some kind of digital detox, which we were talking about earlier, and that's just become part of their routine.

(05:02):

But then things like 86% saying touching products changes their decision to buy. Their craving surprises in mail, they like getting catalogs. And for me, it's an extension of what you start to see with retro fashion, vinyl, just the return to analog. We forget that touch is the most powerful sense we have, and brands need to activate that in conjunction with everything else they do.

Marcus Johnson (05:28):

Yeah, it's easy to forget that. Suzy, our forecasting team continues to point out the shopping in-store matters more than online. And the dollars seem to reflect that. 83% of folks shopping in brick and mortar locations this year. Fast-forward to 2029, which seems way in the distant future, it's still over 80% of people shopping in-store. So in-store still matters, which seems ridiculous to say, but sometimes we need reminding of that apparently.

Suzy Davidkhanian (05:57):

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Not only does it matter, but it's paramount. And what's even more important is to think about how do you get people into a store? Whether it's through a good experience or whether it's through good product. But then how do you try and stay connected with them while they're in the store? So you mix and match digital with physical so that you have an even more powerful experience.

Tim Maleeny (06:18):

Yeah, exactly. If I get a piece of direct mail that might have a QR code that might refer me to some offer or something else in store, how do you make sure when they're in the store that's a good experience, they don't get distracted. All of that goes hand in hand.

Marcus Johnson (06:32):

Yeah. And it seems to depend on the category quite significantly. Jennifer Williams of The Wall Street Journal, I was reading a piece that she just wrote. And she was saying time spent lingering in the stores has been declining in recent years, however it has begun to pick up in certain sectors, apparel beauty, things like that. She said they're both rising by about four and 2% respectively in the first part of this year versus the same period in 2023, data from Alex Partners there.

(07:03):

So it does depend on the category. But, Tim, it does seem as though regardless of the category, a lot of folks do center their day around the trips that they've got to make to whatever store that is. 63% of consumers planning trips around retailers according to this piece of research that you just put out.

Tim Maleeny (07:24):

Well, you think about your own experience, what am I going to have for dinner tonight? And do I need something in the house? Do I need something in the apartment? Am I going to meet friends later? Am I going to stop along the way at a particular store? So a lot of the things that we think of as chores or errands are in fact shopping trips and experiences that lead you back into the physical world.

(07:45):

A lot of those are taken in conjunction with, I looked up something online or I might like that. I'm going to go in the store and check it out. I'm going to see if that fits or if I like the fabric. Or I want to just know where the store is. And that combination is what we're seeing both in how you can reach consumers, but also what people want as experiences.

(08:06):

Especially again, for me, the most surprising thing about the study that when you stop and think about it actually makes sense is Millennials and Gen Z, the numbers go even higher. They're the ones who really want to get out there and experience the real physical world again.

Suzy Davidkhanian (08:24):

What was really surprising in a good way is that it is truly the younger generation that wants the digital detox and is looking for that sense of community and belonging and that buzz. If you think about in New York, there were some stores long ago in Soho who had lines for people to get in.

(08:41):

And so it's like this whole experience that they're looking for in a vibe. And it's coming from the younger generation who that's what they want more than a screen. Because they're doing their homework on screens, they're working on screens, they're being entertained, watching TV. I mean, everything is happening on a screen and it all starts to blur. This is where the store comes in, the physical stuff.

Tim Maleeny (09:03):

And I think brands forget that a brand, a great brand, is an experience. There's an emotional component that I experience, how I feel when I see the logo or how I respond to your advertising, but the product itself, the store experience, all of that. So how do you tie that entire experience into an unbroken thread? And you need to think about that from your marketing standpoint as well, because that's where the points of consistency on authenticity comes through, especially for younger shoppers.

Marcus Johnson (09:30):

So, Tim, we're talking a lot about young people wanting those types of in-store experiences, but it's the older folks who have had those in the more traditional sense. And so I'm wondering what's making younger folks want a more physical retail experience in your opinion? When they don't remember the Toys R Us stores the same way that folks who are kind of late Millennials and up experienced.

Tim Maleeny (09:56):

I think part of it is a yearning for, it's almost a primal desire for the tactile. Again, if we haven't been using that sense except to swipe one way or the other, just tap on our phones, it's not really the same.

(10:11):

Retailers have long talked about should we have a scent in the store? What are the colors we use? Things like that. Those are all different ways to activate your senses and create an impression, but also a memory, an emotional memory.

(10:23):

And I think for younger consumers, when you look at things like DJ culture leading to this interest in vinyl and record players, why has that had staying power? There's something really cool about holding a record.

(10:37):

It's great to listen to music on Spotify, but it's also great to actually have a thing and own a thing and touch that, take it out of the slip case, and all of that. I think you're seeing a lot of retro products come back for their utility, but also because of that tactile experience.

(10:54):

But the study really hit on interesting things like wanting to get direct mail, wanting to see catalogs. We see the big digital retailers like Amazon doing a Christmas catalog. Why is that? Something great about flipping through, getting ideas, marking pages.

(11:08):

That's not to say they're not advertising to you digitally. It's not to say that their site isn't critical, that's the heart of their business, but how do you use those things in conjunction? And I think marketers make the mistake thinking it's either or. Your digital campaign is going to be a lot more effective if you drop direct mail at the right time and vice versa.

Suzy Davidkhanian (11:26):

I mean, there's a reason why we always say meet them, the customer where they are, and that way you remove a lot of friction points for them. Right?

Tim Maleeny (11:33):

Exactly.

Suzy Davidkhanian (11:33):

And we forget sometimes that that is both a physical and a digital and it comes together sometimes and that's okay.

Marcus Johnson (11:42):

Yeah. I want to pick up on the word we've been using, which is experience. Suzy, I wanted to throw this at you. So Grant Gustafson, Head of Retail Consulting and Analytics at Sensormatic Solutions thinks, "Post pandemic, we have definitely seen a shift where when consumers decide to shop in store, they are expecting an experience." What do you make of that?

Suzy Davidkhanian (12:06):

I think it's like the idea of value. It means different things to different people. I don't know if you guys saw some of the LinkedIn posts of the 4th of July weekend where people were going into, it happens to be the same store, where the shelves were empty. So that's a bad experience.

(12:19):

So everything about going into a store is technically an experience. I think depending on who the audience of that study was, it could be if it's younger folks or a certain demographic, they want an experience to be a pop star as they're signing autographs. Or there's a makeup counter person that's doing your makeup for free. Or there is an advisor who's helping you pick the right outfits. All of these things are experiences. Beading necklaces, all of these things could be experiences. So I think it just depends on the context.

Marcus Johnson (12:49):

Yeah.

Tim Maleeny (12:49):

What I love about that is if you think about retail, for the longest time it was stock the goods. I'll go get the goods. I know where to get them. Now because I can buy things off my phone or there's other alternatives in my area, beyond the experience, retailers have to realize they're in the hospitality business.

Suzy Davidkhanian (13:09):

Yeah.

Tim Maleeny (13:09):

So what's it feel like when I go in? What's the aisle width? What's the lighting like?

Suzy Davidkhanian (13:14):

Yeah, the cleanliness. I mean all these things that-

Tim Maleeny (13:16):

Yeah. If I don't enjoy that experience or the shelves are bare, I'll just order it online or I'll go to another store. And yet if it's a welcoming environment, in addition to coming back, there's that sense of discovery.

(13:30):

And that's one thing you see with younger audiences. And you look at the success of certain retailers like TJ Maxx, you literally don't know what you're going to get. And that's part of the fun of it. I can go in and out, but discovery is a big part of shopping that I think got lost for a little while there.

Suzy Davidkhanian (13:44):

Yeah. And it depends. If you're going to a grocery store, you kind of want to go in and out. So the experience needs to be different than TJ Maxx that is known to be the treasure hunt. They kind of do it on purpose. Like a Costco, I'm pretty sure they move everything around on purpose.

Tim Maleeny (13:57):

They completely do it on purpose.

Suzy Davidkhanian (13:58):

So you discover things you didn't know you needed. The Printemps here in New York, I don't know if you've had the chance to see it. It is truly an experiential place. Between the makeup stuff that is only two brands, maybe three brands, but then there's a little bar and a tea place, and the shoe salon is truly a salon.

(14:17):

I think it just depends. Experience matters, but understanding what that looks like for your consumer once you have the basics down, that depends.

Marcus Johnson (14:26):

Yeah, I think you're spot on. At first when I thought of experience, I was like, "Okay, something a bit above and beyond." And there was this example in The Wall Street Journal piece talking about Canada Goose.

Suzy Davidkhanian (14:36):

Oh, yeah. Of course it's Canada Goose.

Marcus Johnson (14:37):

And customers trying on parkas and other cold weather gear in cold rooms where the temperatures are below freezing. Have you gone and done that before?

Suzy Davidkhanian (14:46):

I have done it.

Marcus Johnson (14:47):

Oh, what was it like?

Suzy Davidkhanian (14:48):

So I'm not saying this about Canada Goose, but I am saying that there could be experiences that are gimmicky. So there's another retailer who shall remain nameless that had a jean try-on machine where you walk through. Do you know about this one? If I said the name, you would know, but I'm scared to say the name. So if you go into the machine, it would like 3D image you to tell you what are the right-

Tim Maleeny (15:10):

Like a virtual reality?

Suzy Davidkhanian (15:11):

Yeah. What are the right jeans and the right size for you? Amazing. There was always a lineup. But they didn't always have those jeans in that brand, in that size available for you.

(15:22):

So the cold room is not the right example. Any of these more gimmicky experiences. If you can't deliver the promise, which is I have the shoes, I have the coat, I have the jeans, and whatever you're looking for on the spot, then you lose.

(15:35):

You're better off having less sort of glitzy experiences, but find ways to create that community. You know what, a book reading. I mean, there are lots of things you can do that will help foster loyalty without losing yourself in that.

Marcus Johnson (15:51):

Yeah. There was an example, Coach stores offering coffee and cocktails. And they were saying, the company was saying that the more immersive stores are performing better than other locations. Elevated traffic, longer dwell times, higher frequency of returning. And they were saying it's been resonating with Gen Z-ers in particular, which I thought was quite interesting.

Tim Maleeny (16:09):

Yeah. Again, they're buying into the experience and in a way that's where you have to think about your marketing as an experience too. I mean, that's part of the experience. And I think sometimes marketers try to make things overly complicated and forget that people do business with brands that they like.

(16:26):

And most things are a want. And if it feels like a should, it gets put back burner. But if it's a, I want to go to that store, I want to buy this product, or I want to look at this catalog, then people start to engage because there's so many choices, that tyranny of choice can paralyze people. And instead you have to be a little more inviting and a lot more human. And I think that got lost for a while.

Suzy Davidkhanian (16:49):

Absolutely. And if you create that cultural sort of space and you create a destination, whatever that looks like for your brand, that's authentic, people will be inspired and they're going to come back. Versus this is a distribution point, which it used to be thought of that. And maybe for groceries, it really is that. But there are lots of brands where it shouldn't be just a distribution point because then you can just be online and do it online.

Tim Maleeny (17:12):

Yeah, exactly.

Suzy Davidkhanian (17:13):

One of the other things I loved about the report was this whole idea around the wow factor, and it's beyond the TJ Maxx treasure hunt. It's almost like touching and feeling brings this surprise delight. And you guys had some great information on that.

Tim Maleeny (17:28):

Yeah, I mean that goes back to the tactile memory and experience that we all crave. It was something like seven out of 10 Millennials and Gen Z said they wanted to be surprised by brands, by getting things in the mail, even direct mail. And I think the key word there is surprised.

(17:45):

That idea that, oh, I wasn't expecting that and now I'm holding something. And even if that leads me to something as simple as a QR code, if the brand comes through in that, I have more emotional connection with that company, with that brand, and I'm thinking about that product in a different way.

(18:01):

And whatever I just glimpsed in my peripheral vision digitally. Or if I happen to pay attention to a TV ad or saw something on YouTube, it's not only just going to stay with me, I appreciate the fact that I didn't see that coming. And I think same with catalogs, same with in-store experiences. That surprise and delight is a real thing in the physical world.

Suzy Davidkhanian (18:21):

Even things like getting a package in the mail and the way it's packaged. I shop at the same stores all the time. Sometimes it comes, you can tell it came from a store. It's so beautifully packaged. Sometimes it comes from the distribution center still in the plastic bag. And there's no right or wrong necessarily, but it certainly creates a different emotional connection when I could tell someone took the time to make my package look very pretty.

Tim Maleeny (18:43):

You mentioned unboxing. That is a thing that is now celebrated, but everybody loves to get packages in the mail. It's like Christmas every day. And some brands have done a brilliant job with their packaging where that's part of the experience and it's creating an anticipation of the quality of what you're going to get. It's this almost subcutaneous excitement that fuels that brand connection.

Marcus Johnson (19:08):

Excellent. Unfortunately, that's all we've got time for for today's episode. The full report is called The Return of Touch. And you can click the link in the show notes if you want to read all of the findings from Quad and the Harris Poll. It's a brilliant piece of research.

(19:22):

But thank you so much to my guests for hanging out with me today. Thank you first to Tim.

Tim Maleeny (19:26):

Thank you. Great being here.

Marcus Johnson (19:27):

Yes, sir. Thank you to Suzy.

Suzy Davidkhanian (19:28):

Thanks for having me.

Marcus Johnson (19:30):

Always a pleasure. And thank you to the whole editing crew and to everyone for listening into Behind the Numbers, an EMARKETER video podcast made possible by Quad. Subscribe to hear about new episodes. Follow us so we appear in your podcast library and leave a rating review if you can.

(19:43):

Behind the Numbers will be back on Monday, July 21st. Happiest of weekends.